How do you eliminate runout

[Savage 12BVSS]

Calm winds today, range is calling............guns to shoot. Did my best to answer your questions Brett, any other questions PM me. Good Shooting all : )

 

[Brett Bracken]

Thank you Savage....enjoy your day. When I get my mandrel and collet dies in I may take you up on that.

 

[chuckhunter3]

I have and EP of only 5 FPS and I don't have or do any of that. Hum :/ What am I doing Wrong/ wright? A lot of the time I can get it down to 4 FPS on my EP without all the fancy stuff. Sometimes less is more. Use less stuff and get better results. Use to much stuff and you are increasing your room for error. Good luck.

I got a kick out of your reply. Way back in the early 70's I shot competitve benchrest. I had a 6 X 47 that shot in the teens. For sizing I had a neck sizing die and used an RCBS Junior press C-clamped to a table and a Wilson inline seater. I would have liked to have better equipment but could not afford it being early twenties with wife and child. Still I won some IBS matches and others.

 

[jessej]

Thanks guys for the explanation. I built my rifle to be a hunting rig....specifically hogs. The farthest I can shoot on my place is 834 yds. One time I got to shoot out to 1376 yds and was shooting around 1/2 moa groups in windy conditions. With Berger 215 hybrids I regularly shoot 1/8-1/4 moa 3 shot groups under no wind conditions.....at 834 yds. The rifle has the potential to do better if I could just get more consistent behind it. Would love to see how it would shoot with a more capable shooter.
Thanks again guys

That's 1"-2" groups at 834 yards.....correct?
consistently?
Enjoy this rifle. You may build 20 more before you get another that shoots like that.

 

[jessej]

Sorry for the reply on a months old thread.
I am having a problem with run out, searched the forum, and fell off in a rabbit hole!

 

[Orange Dust]

Thanks Savage.....I am doing pretty much everything you're are saying and with the same equipment except for the Lee collet die. My fired brass has anywhere from .0005-.0010 runout to start with. I run my brass through a universal decapping die first then I throw them in a tumbler and clean them. Next, after cleaning, I anneal all the necks. Then I run them through my Redding bushing die w/o the expander and decapping pin....3 strokes( rotating the brass 1/3 rotation each stroke). Then I seat the bullets with a Forster Ultra Micrometer seating die. Still getting .0025" runout

You can actually induce runout with a bushing die.

 

[jdyoung]

In an effort to improve my reloading process with the intended goal of improving accuracy, SD and ES I have invested in a concentricity gauge to measure runout on my brass necks and finished loads. I also just started using a Redding type S full length "bushing" sizing die to control neck tension. For some darn reason all of my brass necks are ending up with about .0015"-.0025" of runout. What am I doing wrong?

One of the operations I do when setting up the reloading press is to place a Bulls Eye Level on top of the press ram . Then if the Bulls Eye isn't dead center, I place shims under the press mounting flange until the Bulls Eye on the ram shows it is dead center when the mounting bolts are tightened. When I heard about this , years ago, I thought such a minor thing shouldn't count. But once I tried it, I noticed a difference in bullet seating ( smoother bullet seating), in sizing, ( noticeably fewer incidences of the depriming pin hangin' up on the case inner base). Doesn't hurt if machinery is plumb.

 

[nksmfamjp]

This seems to have been covered in a lot of detail. Let me start with I have sorted ammo by bullet tip runout and proven with a limited sample that my groups change a lot at 0.005" TIR vs 0.015"TIR. Like 0.4" to 1.2", if I remember right.

To me, the main thing is to measure. I like the RCBS case master, but it looks like 21st century has an even better unit. I measure case runout 0.05" back from the edge. Under magnification, the mouths have irregularities. I measure bullets back 0.05" back from the top of the copper as bullet tips can be a bit irregular.

Yes, start with fired case TIR and build from there. My best setup is with Forster dies with the expander in. I bought their optional size balls. I find how my dies are tightened down is a big factor. Tighter was not better. Also, it helps to set positions with case in the die with a little handle pressure on it. Pushing to lock the body, pulling to lock the expander.

Yes, I tried type S bushing dies with the bushing loose and clamped. Clamped, I was about the same as the Forster die, but loose, writing up or down, TIR went to crap in 5 cases. I think it was due to lube getting into bushing area and binding it somewhat.

To me, fired case neck runout should be less than 0.001". Neck runout should be 0.0025" or less. Bullet tip runout should be under 0.005"....maybe 0.007"

 

[Exarcher]

In an effort to improve my reloading process with the intended goal of improving accuracy, SD and ES I have invested in a concentricity gauge to measure runout on my brass necks and finished loads. I also just started using a Redding type S full length "bushing" sizing die to control neck tension. For some darn reason all of my brass necks are ending up with about .0015"-.0025" of runout. What am I doing wrong?

Have you tried unscrewing the cap of the die such that only 1/4 of your neck is sized? This is how top benchrest shooters set up. what kind of grouping are you getting with proper load development... ie have you shot anyway? it might be that it shoots well as is??

 

[nksmfamjp]

Have you tried unscrewing the cap of the die such that only 1/4 of your neck is sized? This is how top benchrest shooters set up.

I tried that and got 0.004" max TIR. Avg probably 0.002".

Which nationally ranked benchrest shooter uses type S dies?

 

[marchboom]

You can actually induce runout with a bushing die.

I measured the neck runout of fired cases of my (2) 22-250 Savage rifles. One had .001" and the other had .0006". I used a new Redding FL S-style bushing die and the runout on both cases increased to .0055". I tried several cases with the same results. I tried several bushings, turned them upside down, etc. and the results were the same. I took out the bushing and the induced runout was "only" .0035". I then used my Forster FL dies on the fired cases and no additional runout was induced. The forster dies actually straightened out the necks that the Redding die made crooked. I was using a Co-Ax press.

I was really surprised by the results because Redding make top notch stuff.

The Redding die was returned to Brownells and I'll be using Forster FL dies from now on. I'll just take advantage of their honing service to get the neck size I want.

 

[25WSM]

Lots of br shooters use s type dies. Not all are using redding dies but bushing type dies in general are used alot. A non bushing die can give you better tir but it's not that big a deal. I shoot 1000 yard BR and use all bushing dies from rcbs gold medal to Redding s dies to whidden bushing dies to Hornady bushing dies and finally Harrels. My runout is less than . 003 and it's good enough to shoot 3 to 5 inch groups for 10 shots. If I had more runout than . 003 I would start isolating each step till I found the culprit. The vast majority of the ammo I check are closer to . 002 and that's plenty straight. Almost every person I know at the 1000 yard range use full length bushing dies. A few of them use honed one piece full length dies. I use bushing dies because I like to play with neck tension during load development. I could just figure out what size neck works best and get some honed dies but really haven't found a need to.
Shep

 

[25WSM]

March boom how many different s dies have you used? If you have only tried one and it was a bad one then you haven't given them a fair chance. All manufacturers would replace a die that wasn't up to spec. And all manufacturers can have a bad item from time to time. Sometimes the die will move a little during heat treat but they will send you a new one if you ask.
Shep

 

[IHFarmer07]

This is where the Type-S dies came from.....