How do you eliminate runout

[IHFarmer07]

Run-out on your loaded cartridges is one of the things that effect accuacy the least. If you keep it .003 or less you are good. .001 doesn't shoot any better. Powder charge and seating depth and neck tension are all vastly more important. I have experimented with clocking my cartridges and shooting at 1000 yards and don't do that anymore either. I have purposely bent the bullet in the neck and tested groups and up to about .015 run-out couldn't tell a difference at 100 yards. I did some .050 run-out and my groups did open up to about 1/2 in. This gun I did the test in shoots 1s and 2s consistently. .015 run-out still shot in the 2s. Do the test yourself and you won't worry about run-out anymore. To get the run-out big I bent them in the Hornady run-out guage.
Shep

Like you, F-Class John tested it all and from all the videos I watch him do......I can see him being very ocd in a way and you have the same outcome as he did with runout and no longer makes a big deal of it.....I don't use my Sinclair mandrel anymore like I did, I bought a Kenny Porter die that takes hardened tool steel precision gage pins, those pins don't wear out like SS and carbide is $$ if you can find them.

Another thing that could induce runout on a loaded round is the dreaded donut . You wanna talk about going down a rabbit hole.....runout is where it starts and the rabbit hole gets to be deeper and deeper, more and more expensive.

 

[25WSM]

Been down that hole and won't do it again. Always beware of the rabbit holes with no bottom. But with due diligence and a results driven testing regimen you don't have to go there for long before you figure out it's bottomless.
Shep

 

[Brett Bracken]

Another stupid question.....a few of you have mentioned shooting in the 1's and 2's.....what exactly are you referring to???

 

[dougduey]

Another stupid question.....a few of you have mentioned shooting in the 1's and 2's.....what exactly are you referring to???

Shorthand for 0.1 and 0.2 moa, or teeny tiny groups

 

[25WSM]

Tenths of an inch. You will typically only hear 1s 2s and 3s because it's BR talk and if your not in the 1s and 2s your not competitive. There is also 0s that are under a tenth. So if your rifle shoots consistent 1/4 inch groups it's a mid 2s shooter. On good weather days mid 2s will get you mid pack and below. But for hunting rifles mid 2s is pretty awesome. There are many members on here that shoot competitive BR matches and many like myself have shot many flavors of it. When I shot 1 and 2 hundred yard BR loading was easy. You don't have to be as careful with the little things. And 6ppc and 22ppc shorts shoot in the low 2s quite easily. It's a wind reading game. 1000 yard BR really is won on the loading bench. At 1000 is when all the brass prep and bullet sorting and super tuning all come in. Really for long range hunting you should be doing everything the 1000 yard BR guys are doing at the bench and tuning. The way I loaded ammo for 1 and 200 yard BR would shoot 20 inch groups at 1000. A well tuned and
with proper ammo hunting rig can do 5 inch 3 shot groups or better if all is right. My old 300 win mag shot 208 a Max's into a 7 inch 10 shot group once it was tuned up and I expect better for my new 6.5saum. The 6.5 saum weighs 8.25 pounds all up. Should be interesting. Sorry for the long winded reply but I think the 1000 yard BR guys and long range hunters are a very parralell group. Both need to load and tune the same way to be successful.
Shep

 

[dougduey]

Tenths of an inch. You will typically only hear 1s 2s and 3s because it's BR talk and if your not in the 1s and 2s your not competitive. There is also 0s that are under a tenth. So if your rifle shoots consistent 1/4 inch groups it's a mid 2s shooter. On good weather days mid 2s will get you mid pack and below. But for hunting rifles mid 2s is pretty awesome. There are many members on here that shoot competitive BR matches and many like myself have shot many flavors of it. When I shot 1 and 2 hundred yard BR loading was easy. You don't have to be as careful with the little things. And 6ppc and 22ppc shorts shoot in the low 2s quite easily. It's a wind reading game. 1000 yard BR really is won on the loading bench. At 1000 is when all the brass prep and bullet sorting and super tuning all come in. Really for long range hunting you should be doing everything the 1000 yard BR guys are doing at the bench and tuning. The way I loaded ammo for 1 and 200 yard BR would shoot 20 inch groups at 1000. A well tuned and
with proper ammo hunting rig can do 5 inch 3 shot groups or better if all is right. My old 300 win mag shot 208 a Max's into a 7 inch 10 shot group once it was tuned up and I expect better for my new 6.5saum. The 6.5 saum weighs 8.25 pounds all up. Should be interesting. Sorry for the long winded reply but I think the 1000 yard BR guys and long range hunters are a very parralell group. Both need to load and tune the same way to be successful.
Shep

I'd love to see a photo of your 6.5 and hear what you're feeding it. Won't hijack this post, but I'm sure others would be interested, too.

 

[Brett Bracken]

Thanks guys for the explanation. I built my rifle to be a hunting rig....specifically hogs. The farthest I can shoot on my place is 834 yds. One time I got to shoot out to 1376 yds and was shooting around 1/2 moa groups in windy conditions. With Berger 215 hybrids I regularly shoot 1/8-1/4 moa 3 shot groups under no wind conditions.....at 834 yds. The rifle has the potential to do better if I could just get more consistent behind it. Would love to see how it would shoot with a more capable shooter.
Thanks again guys

 

[25WSM]

It's a Gunwerxs GRB action with a Proof sendero light barrel. It's in a McMillan Htg stock. Has a Bix and Andy trigger. Zeiss V6 3 to 18. I'll post a few pics when I get back down to the shop. Man I hope Gunwerx makes it I really like the GRB actions. I think they are the best sub 1000 dollar action you can get.
Shep

 

[25WSM]

Brett sounds like you are already driving that rifle at a high level. Give yourself some due. That's great accuracy your describing. And yes to the wind management being a factor. It's the one factor that is all on us as shooters to figure out. It's hard to teach and hard to learn. Just have to do purpose driven practice. At 1000 yards I will shoot 10 shots at the bull and I guess my wind values for each shot. I do this slow fire so I have to read the wind. I write down where I think each shot should be on the paper when I get my target. I mentally do it during match groups also. If I see a wind shift and change my hold I mentally note that and verify I did the right call when I get my target back. So far I'm about 50/50 on did I do the right thing. Some times your a hero and sometimes your a zero. Wind is vitally important to long range shooting and probably the hardest part to learn.
Good shooting on your part. Seems like you have a hammer.
Shep

 

[Arkansasdad]

What is TIR???

Total Indicator Reading. Happy Shooting.

 

[dougduey]

It's a Gunwerxs GRB action with a Proof sendero light barrel. It's in a McMillan Htg stock. Has a Bix and Andy trigger. Zeiss V6 3 to 18. I'll post a few pics when I get back down to the shop. Man I hope Gunwerx makes it I really like the GRB actions. I think they are the best sub 1000 dollar action you can get.
Shep

I remember you saying in a post somewhere on this site that you were really impressed with the GRB actions. I'll have to look seriously at them for my next build.

 

[25WSM]

There is alot to like about them. The dual cocking ramps are sweet. The timing of the action is real good with a standard remington 700 replacement trigger. Coned bolt nose. Recoil lug that locks to the action. Pinned picitany rail. Just alot of action for the money.
Shep

 

[Savage 12BVSS]

In a gun I shoot that is 1s to mid 2s consistantly I found a definite errosion in accuracy at .004-.005 runout, and from there it steady grow's worse as runout increases. I see where WSM had a 1s and 2s gun move to 5s at .015 runout. Its not a huge difference as in distance to lands or powder charge but for something that is controllable and not much work to accomplish, I don't intend to give any potential accuracy away. To each their own, but when I work to make a gun live up to its full potential, runout is cheaper to control than a lot of the modifications we do that are expensive and offer only diminishing return as well. To say it doesn't matter and isn't worth checking or dealing with is not the path I take to make a rifle accurate.

 

[25WSM]

I only tested to how much difference it made and at what point it became unacceptable. Most dies have very little trouble giving . 0025 run-out consistently. And I have found that it's just not worth the effort to get it any better. I corrected ammo to less than . 0005 and saw no difference even in my 1000 yard ammo. Tony Boyer was asked to test a piece of equipment that straightened out ammo. Him and a friend tested straightened ammo vs their normal ammo and said basically the same thing. Why waste time fixing something that ain't broke. Now I'm not advocating to just screw your dies in and just load away. I do tighten the lock rings down on my die where they need to be and put them in my lathe and turn a smidge off the bottom of the locking ring. Then I reset my setback. I like the Hornady lock rings and have found some that needed about . 005 taken off the bottom to be straight with the die body. It's just something I do with all my dies even customers dies when they bring their press in for me to set up their dies. Most of my ammo when checked is around . 0015 to . 002 in run-out. This is measured by turning my rounds on the . 200 line and shoulder supported with the indicator put on the ogive/shank junction. That distance to the junction on most of my target ammo is from . 200 to . 350. I cut my Chambers to have enough freebore to seat bullets above the donut area. Can't always do this with hunting guns because of mag length limitations. My 300wdm and 6.5creed 1000 yard guns both have more than . 300 freebore. My 6slr and 6bra have much shorter freebore. My 243ai has alot of freebore because of the short neck. I am still up in the air a little on clocking my ammo. I just wonder if they all rotate the same when you close the bolt. But I will keep testing it to see if I see results over the season. Some have claimed it makes a difference. Anybody have their own thoughts on clocking? Maybe if you just can't achieve straight ammo it could help tighten up your groups if you feel the run-out is an issue.
Shep