Do you really need a runout gauge??

[J E Custom]

Back in the mid 1960's I purchased a set of "Lyman" 264 mag loading dies. Around the mid 1970's I purchased a set of "Pacific" ( absorbed by Hornady I believe ) .264 mag dies. As of this month I'm still using these dies. I have older rifles in 264 & newer ones. Using theses dies my rifles deliver excellent groups, some very tiny. The thought of a Concentric ( run out ) gauge has crossed my mind. Do i really need this gauge or do I just want to tinker for fun? I have taken numerous elk & deer with out the use of a run out gauge. Does the average hunter/re loader really need a run out gauge?? Also still using the same RCBS RockChucker press I bought in the first year of it's production. Am I out of step ? Besides saving money & allowing me to shoot more, reloading for me is fun, & has allowed me countless hours of enjoyment.

The only way you will be able to evaluate the quality of your loading process, is to check for run out. There are many different gauges and ways to do this.

If you have an accurate load that meets your requirements, you probably don't need a concentricity/run out gauge. But if you are interested in improving you Accuracy, they are valuable tools.

There are ways to improve concentricity, but you have to be able to measure changes in your loading procedure. Group size is not the best way, because we all have our good days and bad days when shooting.

If you produce better ammo you will see the difference on your good days. On the bad days, good ammo can tell you that it is just not your day and save lots of frustration and the temptation to change something, when it is the shooters problem.

When a rifle suddenly shoots poorly when up to then it shot great, start by telling your self that maybe its not the rifle or the load. if you have another rifle that performs well you might shooting it to see if it is also off it's accuracy level. if it is not , then you can assume that there is something wrong with the rifle or the ammo.

We all have bad days. admitting it may be hard but it happens.

J E CUSTOM

 

[cape cove]

Been loading for over 35 yrs, and got into run-out gauges about 10 yrs ago. What this tool has done for me, I believe, is make me a better loader. It has allowed me to locate where in my reloading process that some of the run out problems were coming from. It also told me if some of the steps I took to reduce the run-out were working. It will not take long to let you know that the expander button has got to go.

 

[Hespco]

So, who makes the mandrel type neck sizers?

 

[Buster Hemlock]

There are a lot of companies who make them, K&M, Sinclair, 21st century to name a few. They make a few sizes based on how much neck tension you want.

 

[Hespco]

For those who don't want to spend the money on specialized neck sizing equipment... I recommend using a bronze bore brush inside the neck of fired cases. Take a couple fired cases before sizing. Chuck an appropriate size bronze ( 264 for 6.5, 308 for 30 cal etc ) bore brush in your electric drill. Apply a little powdered mica or not. Run it at full speed back & forth thru the neck for 10 to 15 secs. It polishes the inside of the neck. Them size & feel how much smoother the expander ball pulls thru. It works even smoother if you have an elliptical carbide style expander button. Try it at least once & see for your self.

 

[Buckys]

I agree that monitoring runout is a good tool towards improving your reloading process.

I will offer some different perspective.

I live and do most of my hunting in Texas where 95% of my shots are 200yds or less and 99% are 300 or less. As such, I often use factory ammo.

I have certainly found that a 20 round box of ammo that has 5 thous or less runout shoots a lot better than boxes with much greater variation.

There are obviously other variables that need to be considered and my analysis has been far from scientific but I definitely sense a correlation between runout and accuracy as well as just generally good process control and accuracy.

For what it's worth, my Hornady Superperformance factory ammunition has generally been the best in low variability with respect to runout. Federal Fusion surprisingly is also pretty good. Before I started measuring runout, I would have said that those were some of the more accurate factory ammo that I have found.

On the other hand, I have been most disappointed with Federal Premium ammo in the past. Lo and behold, when I started measuring runout I found that this ammo had some of the worst variability especially for the relative price point. That being said, I have a hunch that I might also find more variability in other aspects of this ammo than just runout ... but that manufacturers, and their ammo brands as well as lots with better process control shoot better than those that are lacking.

Obviously, the outcome of that conclusion is not eye-opening but the point that runout is one measure to assess overall process control, either for custom or factory loading, is a good thing.

P.S. I'm still not sold on the Hornady runout gauge's ability to correct runout. I have tried it and sometimes that ammo shoots well and other times not so much. And I have run into cases where trying to fix a round with more than 10 thous runout caused the neck to loosen. I have not seen much difference in results when measuring with my Hornady vs. RCBS concentricity gauges and the latter may be the better buy given its ability to measure loaded ammo as well as just brass concentricity.

 

[misterc01]

I use a bushing die, and concentricity gauge. Each of these has improved my accuracy. It has also increased my loading time, but that is part of the fun!

 

[Buster Hemlock]

Hespco, I'd really get away from the bronze brush inside the neck. Your putting scratches inside the neck, possibly wearing the insides of the neck unevenly and there is no way they are uniform across all your brass. Uniformity is the name of the game. Those scratches and non-uniform necks turn into varying amounts of grip on the bullet within the neck which will result in different amounts of uncorking pressure, thus greater SD and ES. I'd switch to nylon if your going to continue this practice, which will still accomplish the polishing your going for. Also if your storing your loaded rounds for any amount of time a little carbon left in the neck or the application of some graphite with a q-tip will help eliminate cold welding of the brass and bullet jacket.

 

[kai]

I received my first batch of ADG brass in 28 Nosler.

I full length sized the brass (without the expander button out of the FL Redding sizing die) so that I could turn the necks.
The expander button increased the runout of the necks by roughly .005" so I didn't use it.

Instead, after FL sizing the brass, I sized the necks up slightly with the K&M sizing mandrel in order to turn the necks with the K&M neck turning mandrel and cutter.

After the neck turning, the necks had a runout averaging less than .002" but the necks were slightly too large for seating the bullets.

I could size the necks down with a Lee collet die, however, I'm going to open up the neck area of the full length sizing die to the proper size for seating the 143 gn. Hammer Hunter bullets. Hopefully this will give me the optimum concentricity of the necks to the case body and eliminate the need to size the body and necks separately when reloading the brass.

 

[L.Sherm]

I can tell you all expander buttons are not created equall. I'm using an expander mandrel on 2 Whidden FL dies one a bushing and one a non bushing both are producing less than .001 runout most are .0005. That being said it is on neck turned brass also with K@M neck turner.

 

[shinbone]

You can buy meat in the grocery store, so we don't "need" to hunt, but here we are, anyway . . .