How do you judge wind

[Lee7588]

The first wind that the projectile encounters has the most impact on the projectile. At what ever distance that may be it is the closest to the muzzle.

Thank you for clarifying your position, one of your post said from the shooting position. I understand what you are saying even though I disagree at least

 

[MagnumManiac]

wind effect in simple form goes a bit like this-
Suppose there is a 2" wind drift in the first 100yds and no more wind affect from that distance, then at 1000yds the bullet will be 20" off course…..
If there is only wind for the last 100yds the bullet will arrive at the 900yd mark on line, and if velocity is only half of muzzle velocity it will drift 4" in the final 100yds, reaching the 1000yd mark only 4" off course.

In summary, the bullet will drift more as distance increases and the velocity reduces but wind closest to the muzzle will have greater affect on the overall drift.

This is exactly true, but my point was that, if you have already compensated for wind at the shooting position, then wind along the entire corridor, especially at 2,000 metres, needs the last third of travel factored in. Mirage is the best indicator, but 2 of our ELR ranges only have mirage clearly visible at 1.000, beyond that, flags are the only visible features, which complicates things even more.
As I said earlier, shooting game, is completely different to shooting LR/ELR targets, where a miss is inconsequential, other than score…
Personally, 1,000 metres is pushing shots at game with me…in the wind.

Cheers.

 

[R. Cram]

Wind is my passion, so if I sound like I am pontificating, my apologies. I built a house off grid in CO just so I could shoot every day in various wind conditions.

I use my side parallax to focus on mirage; it is why I love NF scopes. I have a March but it isn't nearly as "sensitive" as my NF scopes. Mirage is my No 1 method. If there is no mirage, I use a Kestrel but even more so, I use a wind flag made from a lightweight shock corded pole planted at my location. That gives me direction and wind value (esp if I compare the prevailing wind to the Kestrel reading). For wind direction at my target location (assuming no mirage), I look at vegetation - is the wind blowing the left side of the tree or the right side? Which side of a rock is the vegetation blowing?

The range obviously matters a lot. I have various gongs at my CO place; the 620 yard gong is 10x12, and with a Lapua, Edge, 300 RUM or 28N, it takes a pretty strong wind to hold 2 MOA; not so at 910 or farther. I have a gong at 760 that is a 15" circle; if the wind flag is blowing about 25 degrees, I hold on the edge and hit within 5" of center about every time. A 45 degree wind is 2 MOA, and if it is blowing hard enough that the flag (it is actually a piece of string) is higher than 45 degrees, I hold at least 3 MOA. Same wind is a 4 to 5 MOA hold at 910. I have similar rules if I can see the mirage.

I only practice long range shooting with my long range rifles. I have heard many say a .223 is great tool to learn the wind. I disagree; you need to shoot your LR rifles constantly or you will be subconsciously biased. I have a .338 WM with a B&C reticle. I shoot that at least once a day at 500 yards using only the reticle. The wind hold at 500 (225 Hornady SP) is far more than my .338 Lapua at 620. If I only shot that .338 WM, I would overcompensate when it came time to shoot the Lapua. Hitting something at 500 yards is infinitely easier than doing it at twice the distance.

I have said this many times, but the wind in the mountains at my CO place gust far more than the winds in the AZ desert. In AZ you almost always have mirage. I would also say the direction of the wind at my shooting site in AZ is almost always the same as at my target, but not so true in CO. I used to live in MN; when land is flat, the wind is much more consistent.

The worst wind is one that is fish tailing toward me or away. This is extremely difficult because a wind varying from 11 to 1 o'clock has a 1/2 full value either way. At 620 it doesn't matter much, but farther it becomes extremely difficult.

When I practice shooting in the wind I almost never take a second shot if I miss unless I want to confirm something weird (my 910 yard gong is up on a hill and once in a great while a "zero" wind is anything but). Correcting a miss isn't that difficult but you are not likely to get that chance hunting. In Colorado, I leave my rifles set up right outside the door of my loading room; when I see a wind condition that looks challenging, I shoot. Then I wait a while for a different condition. I normally take a shot at my 910 yard gong first thing in the morning but the wind is almost always calm (I do have to hold for spin however).

I don't practice on ranges with wind flags because they are too easy and you don't have them in the field. I video every LR shot I take in CO; it is a huge advantage. The bullet "puff" on the gong shows me the wind at the target the moment I pulled the trigger + TOF.

If there are rain drops, snowflakes, or weed debris blowing in the wind, they pretty much determine my wind call.

I do think shooting at one location leads to learning the local conditions and makes you think you are better than you really are. Shooting in the desert is a great way to "test" my wind skills after shooting for months in CO but something like PRS at different locations would be even better.

Until I got my place in CO and could shoot every day in various wind conditions, I really wasn't that great at wind calling. Being great includes knowing the wind condition that results in a high probability of missing or wounding, which you only learn by missing. I would say once your wind hold in MOA is twice your target size in MOA, your odds of missing increase rapidly. For example, a 10" target at 500 yards is 2 MOA; that means a four MOA wind hold is about max. At 1000 yards, that vital area is 1 MOA, so the max wind hold to assure a high probability of a hit is 2 MOA, which is not a very strong wind (it is a mouse fart if you shoot a 6.5 Creedmoor). The stronger the wind, the higher the standard deviation of the wind speed; combine that with TOF and you have two things working against you even if you are master wind caller.

Finally, I would add this: I got to "play" with the Trijicon Ventus when it was being evaluated. Sure, it didn't read wind past 500 yards, and it took a few seconds for it to read the wind, but it was amazing. I never missed at any range the day I got to use it. I never heard why they dropped it, but I suspect it wasn't a "cure all" - unlike laser rangefinders (and it had an outstanding one), the feedback had a very limited shelf life; by the time you measured it, the wind had likely changed. But knowing that the prevailing condition was 6 or 8 mph, for example, was huge. I was ready to fork over 15K for one.

LRnut has obviously dedicated lots of time and money to trying to understand the effect of the wind and there may be others writing comments in this forum who do the shooting part more than the typewriting part, my concern is people assuming they can purchase marksmanship or experiance, the only way possible to learn the wind is by shooting in it. I think way too many people think if they buy a $3000 rifle and mount a $3000 scope on it and then shoot little bitty 3 shot groups at 100 yds off a bench that qualifies then to shoot at a living target at 1000yds. If you consider a 10 inch vital area in a deer or elk that means if you are off by more than 5 inches from the effect of the wind you are out of the vital area. That means you have to guess the wind at 1000 yds by 1/2 min or better. I shoot High power which is a shooting game where you cannot rest the rifle on anything but your body, no bipods, no sand bags just a sling and your elbow so it simulates field conditions unless you have benchrests in the field. There is a group of people you see steadily at these matches, the same people at each match and in the Seattle area when I started in 1998 there was 1 or two matches every weekend for half the year so these same people were heads and shoulders above the shooting skills of the average hunter just due to their drive to get better and due to the time they spend shooting. Some of the people I shot with are on the USA Palma team which is the world competition of long range shooting and these shooters devote a tremendous ammount of time and money to attempt to be on the team and then if they are on the team more time spent practicing endlessly to be as good as they can. Sorry this is so long winded but I wanted to show how much devotion these people have and also highly skilled thay are, at any rate for any of these people to lay down at an unfamiliar range with any wind and shoot a x which is 1min of angle on their first shot is unlikely probably a fair amount of the time they could shoot a 10 which is 2 min of angle and with any ammount of wind when they are shooting a 10 would make them happy for their first shot. The accuracy of the rifles is important but not as important as experiance judging the wind and no fancy gear can replace experiance

 

[R. Cram]

We have a spot that we shoot very often across a canyon. I have never seen mirage there. It most often has little to no wind at the shooting position. Most often it requires 2 moa wind hold at 900y. Sometimes it requires a wind hold the opposite of the wind direction at the shooting position. Very rarely is there any noticable wind in the far side of the canyon. We have shot there a few times when no wind hold is needed even though it is breezy at the shooting location.

Again, I by no means consider myself an expert at reading wind. Just the opposite.

mirage is my favorite method to judge wind often at the range wind flags will go 3 different directions for 3 flags and they are indicating wind at the elevation of the flag which may be different than at the elevation of bullet flight. You won't see mirage over a canyon, the heat waves from mirage are bouncing off the ground. no one can guess the wind every time in medium conditions within 1/2 min and a sighter will help but it is rare when the wind is steady and doesn't change velocity or worse direction.

 

[QuietTexan]

So my thought processes is y'all are all at least partially correct, because:

Wind at the muzzle makes the most difference over the full flight of the bullet, since any error will get multiplied over distance. But this is the easiest to get correct because you can read right where it happens with a Kestrel. You might end up with a 1MPH bracket but there's no reason to accept a 10+MPH bracket for this input, even if your only tool is talc powder and your mind.

Wind downrange affects the bullet after most of the flight has occurred (even diminished BC due to velocity loss doesn't have as much time/distance to continue to change trajectory) so while a blown call of far wind is less impactful in aggregate than blowing the same call on near wind, it's significantly harder to gauge correctly and must be treated as having an outsized effect on trajectory due to uncertainty. The bracket will always be a larger range.

So from the perspective of what I as the shooter can do to make a better shot - get an accurate near-wind read and hedge the crap out of the far wind guess. (one hedge method here is caliber selection, that's an entirely different conversation but still valid to mention) Both near and far end up getting weighted to equal importance because one I can reduce error on significantly and one is always a SWAG on the first shot.

I agree with LRNut that shooting is the only way to know. But I also think there's a lot of benefit to things like having your Kestrel with you sitting outside and guessing wind brackets when it gusts, and even in watching traces of other people shooting. When I'm in the scope I'm running the gun and don't see everything, but when spotting you don't have to deal with follow through and get to see more.

One thing I feel get's lost in this discussion sometimes is time - as in how much you have to set up for a shot. I use Impact Data book cards to draw up info on stands and certain locations that I'll dig in to glass from. I don't get all tacti-cool and draw out a full deal, but helps me remember distances without having to re-shoot. And no, I don't think it's cheating to write the distances to objects on the inside of the hunting stand with a sharpie either

Sniper Range Card

Sniper Range Card

www.impactdatabooks.com

 

[yobuck]

So my thought processes is y'all are all at least partially correct, because:

Wind at the muzzle makes the most difference over the full flight of the bullet, since any error will get multiplied over distance. But this is the easiest to get correct because you can read right where it happens with a Kestrel. You might end up with a 1MPH bracket but there's no reason to accept a 10+MPH bracket for this input, even if your only tool is talc powder and your mind.

Wind downrange affects the bullet after most of the flight has occurred (even diminished BC due to velocity loss doesn't have as much time/distance to continue to change trajectory) so while a blown call of far wind is less impactful in aggregate than blowing the same call on near wind, it's significantly harder to gauge correctly and must be treated as having an outsized effect on trajectory due to uncertainty. The bracket will always be a larger range.

So from the perspective of what I as the shooter can do to make a better shot - get an accurate near-wind read and hedge the crap out of the far wing guess. They both end up getting weighted to equal importance because one I can reduce error on significantly and one is always a SWAG on the first shot.

I agree with LRNut that shooting is the only way to know. But I also think there's a lot of benefit to things like having your Kestrel with you sitting outside and guessing wind brackets when it gusts, and even in watching traces of other people shooting. When I'm in the scope I'm running the gun and don't see everything, but when spotting you don't have to deal with follow watch more.

One thing I feel get's lost in this discussion sometimes is time - as in how much you have to set up for a shot. I use Impact Data book cards to draw up info on stands and certain locations that I'll dig in to glass from. I don't get all tacti-cool and draw out a full deal, but helps me remember distances without having to re-shoot. And no, I don't think it's cheating to write the distances to objects on the inside of the hunting stand with a sharpie either

Sniper Range Card

Sniper Range Card

www.impactdatabooks.com

Well regardless as to how you go about getting the data for the distance, it dosent have any affect on how you deal with a wind call.
Years ago there were no lazer rangefinders.
And there were no Kestrals either.
Yet there was lots of very successful long range hunting taking place.
Lots of hunters had the WW1 and WW2 coincidence range finders, and frankly some of them still do.
Problem was/is with them is that they weigh about 15#, and they need a tripod also.
We would take them to the locations we used for hunting in the off season, and range some objects like say a certain rock.
We made a drawing of the location on heavy paper and marked those distances and the target on the drawing.
We still have and use that book, rather than taking ranges even with the lazer.
You can even guess the distances and shoot at the object.
You might be surprised at how close you might be by just guessing. But corrections are made and the final number of clicks written down.
So having or not having a rangefinder really isnt a big deal if your willing to put some time in during the off season.
As for the hunting, most shots are going to be less than 1000 yds, actually much less than 1000 yds.
So unless the wind is really tearing, it isnt going to be that much of a factor anyway, especially with the larger cartridges.
And if it so happens that the wind is a big factor that particular day, just pack up and go some place where it isnt.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

So you are shooting 900 yds and you know sometimes you are 2 moa one way, sometimes 2 moa the other way, and rarely no wind hold. How do you read the wind at the 900 yds to know which way to hold for windage? Is it just a shoot till you hit then you know or flags?

Usually I'll take an educated guess at what the wind is doing. Often I will take the first shot with no wind hold and adjust the hold based on the bullet splash. In either case hold is adjusted based on the point of impact. There is no putting flags out on a thousand foot deep canyon. The problem is not the wind at the shooting location or at the target location. It is the 800y in between.

 

[QuietTexan]

Well regardless as to how you go about getting the data for the distance, it dosent have any affect on how you deal with a wind call.

Do you mean my data card? Distances are easy, that's like a 5 minute thing to write down. But then I'll build it up, put wind brackets on it, I'll note channels and such and try to see where things are unusual. If I have the time to dig in, relax, and start glassing hard I'll do all the wind-voodoo and look at grasses moving and mirage and try to find switches or open areas with a full value impact. My process is get the range, get the near wind, and focus on the far wind as the critical unknown variable. Near wind can be a bigger issue ballistically but it's faster to mitigate with a Kestrel. But yeah I'll admit I get bit sometimes not remembering what is what and need to cheat on the range, hence writing it on the stand wall. Would be so awesome to nail a wind holdover and be on the wrong elevation stadia

There's one range I shoot at that has a defined wind channel between 1300 and 1500 yards, we've all figured out the plus value shooting into that channel. Somehow the trajectory arc for 1500 pretty much avoids that particular tree line cut and you can remove the plus value on the next yard line. That's the stuff I'm trying to figure out on the card, the windage dials for drop (ie spindrift) are going to have less an impact than long wind uncertainty.

 

[atepointer]

Do you mean my data card? Distances are easy, that's like a 5 minute thing to write down. But then I'll build it up, put wind brackets on it, I'll note channels and such and try to see where things are unusual. If I have the time to dig in, relax, and start glassing hard I'll do all the wind-voodoo and look at grasses moving and mirage and try to find switches or open areas with a full value impact. My process is get the range, get the near wind, and focus on the far wind as the critical unknown variable. Near wind can be a bigger issue ballistically but it's faster to mitigate with a Kestrel. But yeah I'll admit I get bit sometimes not remembering what is what and need to cheat on the range, hence writing it on the stand wall. Would be so awesome to nail a wind holdover and be on the wrong elevation stadia

There's one range I shoot at that has a defined wind channel between 1300 and 1500 yards, we've all figured out the plus value shooting into that channel. Somehow the trajectory arc for 1500 pretty much avoids that particular tree line cut and you can remove the plus value on the next yard line. That's the stuff I'm trying to figure out on the card, the windage dials for drop (ie spindrift) are going to have less an impact than long wind uncertainty.

Sounds a lot like where I shoot. New shooters come to our range and use their kestrel muzzle conditions out to 1mile and if it's after 9am or so they will likely not even hit the berm. Yesterday at ~ 1030am was 3-4 SSW at shooting position indicating a 1.0 mil left hold, but winds were full value out of the W at 10-11 at 1 mile which was in reality a 4.7 mil wind hold in my calculator(ended up being 4.4 in reality). Shooting position dope would have impacted in the knee high grass well off the berm. The mirage at the mile berm was laid over cracking the whip horizontally which was not at all what our shooting position would have led us to believe.

With winds out of the S-SW at the shooting position it's just a guess at the muzzle b/c we are tucked back up against the woods and the wind swirls and we are also b/t 2 20' range berm dividers.

 

[yobuck]

Sounds a lot like where I shoot. New shooters come to our range and use their kestrel muzzle conditions out to 1mile and if it's after 9am or so they will likely not even hit the berm. Yesterday at ~ 1030am was 3-4 SSW at shooting position indicating a 1.0 mil left hold, but winds were full value out of the W at 10-11 at 1 mile which was in reality a 4.7 mil wind hold in my calculator(ended up being 4.4 in reality). Shooting position dope would have impacted in the knee high grass well off the berm. The mirage at the mile berm was laid over cracking the whip horizontally which was not at all what our shooting position would have led us to believe.

With winds out of the S-SW at the shooting position it's just a guess at the muzzle b/c we are tucked back up against the woods and the wind swirls and we are also b/t 2 20' range berm dividers.

Do they allow placing clay birds on the berms between the targets?

 

[atepointer]

Do they allow placing clay birds on the berms between the targets?

No they don't. I'd sure like to see that kind of accuracy at a mile though! One of my buddy's averages maybe a volleyball sized group average with his 338NM, can't fathom shooting ~ 4" at a mile that would be cool to see. We had a 4" popper at 800 and 6" at 1000, but they were taken down recently for a gas gun match and they put IPSCs in their place. We also had golf balls at 430 off a hanging frame with string, but those have not been put back up either since the last match.

 

[RockyRandy]

I stand by my belief that the wind at the shooting position is more important than the last 1/3 of the bullet flight . It becomes a matter of time because the conditions has less time to effect the trajectory of the bullet where as the wind at shooting position has the whole length of the bullet flight to act upon it. Once the wind acts on the bullet it will continue moving in that direction, the further the distance the more it will move in the direction it was first acted upon. The conditions along the way will also effect the bullet flight but to a lesser extent. The wind along the bullet path would have much stronger than it was at the shooters position. Just my two cents,

If you are having success doing what you do my all means keep doing it.

Was it the wind that moved the bullet the 1st 100' or was it the shooter being ever so off target the 1st 100'???

 

[Grey Goast]

They make game camera's. that have blue tooth connection so you can view your cameras pictures while sitting at your campsite why not a kestrel with Bluetooth that can mount to a tree like the game camera place at different locations where you hunt and problem solved and there would be no bickering over different idea's of judging the speed of wind. .work together not against each other we become a better team and a hunter and we teach the younger shooters by example not confusion.

 

[Mike Matteson]

I like this:

https://www.weather.gov/media/iwx/webpages/skywarn/Beaufort_Wind_Chart.pdf

Appy as appropriate. View effects (leaves, grass) down range with binocs or spotter. Directions & intensity may vary.

Shooting rodents with Beaufort scale 6 is a challenge.

I would say so.