Great discussion.

[Axl]

Who in da hell builds an 8lb Rigby?
Are you a Pro Wrestler?

It's a T/C Encore. I bought it for a song at a gun store about 15 years ago. Came with a box of shells- 3 were missing, the only ones fired from it. I can shoot it standing, but I take a step or two back firing it. No matter how hard you grip it, your knuckles slam into the back of the trigger guard spur. On the bench I use a lead sled w/60# of lead. It pushes me and the sled back about a foot.
I bring it to camp every year for the tough guys that say recoil doesn't bother them! Most that shoot it, don't ask for another try.

 

[Phil Rizzo]

It's a T/C Encore. I bought it for a song at a gun store about 15 years ago. Came with a box of shells- 3 were missing, the only ones fired from it. I can shoot it standing, but I take a step or two back firing it. No matter how hard you grip it, your knuckles slam into the back of the trigger guard spur. On the bench I use a lead sled w/60# of lead. It pushes me and the sled back about a foot.
I bring it to camp every year for the tough guys that say recoil doesn't bother them! Most that shoot it, don't ask for another try.

I trust your every word to be true!

 

[tonyf3]

Context of where and how someone is hunting is important

I've shot a few elk with a .243. They were all on a ranch, in the clover fields, water not to far from the field, no wind, summer hides. Sitting in hay bales or blinds. No rush, no hurry. It worked just fine. Shots from 200-300yrds.

Where I hunt in eastern Montana the wind and distance is the deciding factor on what I shot
Shots can be long and shooting a 230 hybrid vs. a 100gr class bullet in the wind at distance is the deciding factor there.
230 hybrid wins. I don't feel bad about burning twice the powder per shot when I'm here.
I don't downsize on the deer here either. conditions are the same.

 

[southpa]

Well personally I've been trying to shoot at least 10 shots whenever I need statistically significant data such as when zero'ing or determining my precision with a given rifle/load/position. Relying on only 3-5 shots really increases the chance of the data lying to me. Looking for more valid data isn't stacking the deck I don't think. The way I look at it if I shoot 3 shot groups, I can do that 4 times on the same target and I've got much more trustworthy data to make decisions with.

That's logical. But valid data is valid data. If I develop a load that's .3 for 5 shots it's plenty valid enough every time I pull the trigger 5 times than at what point am I just wasting time and money on pulling the trigger to collect data?

 

[southpa]

If your form, pull and rest are equal, I don't know what differentiates 30-338 cal from .224 or .244 or anything else PROVIDED the weight of the larger ones is enough to keep it from moving excessively between ignition and bullet exit.
If fear or sensitivity causes a change in form and pull, or the blast is excessive to you, I'd think a step or 2 down is in order.
What am I missing?

Phil, I agree . This is precisely my experience. I've never equated my poor shooting to wishing I'd have chosen a smaller caliber. It's just not something thats ever occurred in my life. As with most, I've missed my fare share of shots and in all cases it's been with proven rifles that I'm comfortable with. I cannot remember a long range miss that I didn't know very shortly after the shot (but usually as the trigger is breaking) what the problem was. In every case its been the nut behind the trigger not the caliber selection that has made me miss.

 

[Huntnful]

Will you post the ballistics of the 109s with a 10mph cross wind out to 1000 yards? Let me know elevation so we can compare apples. I could build it, but figured you might have it already. Want to compare it to my 7saum shooting 180 eldms and my 300nmi shooting 245s.

Thanks!

Punch in a 109gr. bullet with a .295 G7 going 3320fps at any elevation and wind speed to compare. And that was a 24" barrel. My new barrel is 26".

Also held .4 for 5 shots at 600 yards.

 

[Huntnful]

Context of where and how someone is hunting is important

I've shot a few elk with a .243. They were all on a ranch, in the clover fields, water not to far from the field, no wind, summer hides. Sitting in hay bales or blinds. No rush, no hurry. It worked just fine. Shots from 200-300yrds.

Where I hunt in eastern Montana the wind and distance is the deciding factor on what I shot
Shots can be long and shooting a 230 hybrid vs. a 100gr class bullet in the wind at distance is the deciding factor there.
230 hybrid wins. I don't feel bad about burning twice the powder per shot when I'm here.
I don't downsize on the deer here either. conditions are the same.

Context of terrain is absolutely a factor. Great point!

If I'm shooting a bull that barely steps out in a small opening, in a sea of green timber. I want that 8" wound channel without a doubt haha.

Open faced burn, or an ag field like you stated, I'd feel comfortable with smaller.

 

[Mark37082]

Wow! This is still going. It is always interesting to read the diverse opinions on the forum. When stepping back and examining the original post and podcast, there is really nothing I can disagree with given the parameters considered. I personally enjoy shooting magnum bigger bore rifles, but only in limited doses. Excessive recoil and muzzle blast (concussion and ear splitting noise) are not conducive to practice for me. Suppressors also have changed the game for me when practicing. Those that have the skill and experience to shoot well and hunt with large magnums were not the intended focus of original discussion. Bigger and faster are better for large game in the hands of the highly skilled shooters IMO. I'm not in the highly skilled category so I need a great deal practice.

 

[mrjashu]

If your form, pull and rest are equal, I don't know what differentiates 30-338 cal from .224 or .244 or anything else PROVIDED the weight of the larger ones is enough to keep it from moving excessively between ignition and bullet exit.
If fear or sensitivity causes a change in form and pull, or the blast is excessive to you, I'd think a step or 2 down is in order.
What am I missing?

You make a good point about weight, of course others have mentioned brakes and suppressors as ways to mitigate recoil as well.

I would say for me the biggest questions center around shots under time pressure in very compromised positions. I don't worry about the shots where I have time to build a good position and maybe get prone etc. It's if I'm shooting semi-supported and trying to get the shot off very quickly that I wonder about. In that situation your form might be very compromised. How much does added recoil exacerbate this (if at all)? I've never seen anybody present real data on this. Perhaps because it's very unique to each individual?

Personally I've done the majority of my hunting with magnum cartridges but I'm hoping to do a lot of shooting with a smaller cartridges in the future and compare the cartridges in similar weight rifles. Perhaps I will be able to settle the questions in my own mind at least

 

[Huntnful]

You make a good point about weight, of course others have mentioned brakes and suppressors as ways to mitigate recoil as well.

I would say for me the biggest questions center around shots under time pressure in very compromised positions. I don't worry about the shots where I have time to build a good position and maybe get prone etc. It's if I'm shooting semi-supported and trying to get the shot off very quickly that I wonder about. In that situation your form might be very compromised. How much does added recoil exacerbate this (if at all)? I've never seen anybody present real data on this. Perhaps because it's very unique to each individual?

Personally I've done the majority of my hunting with magnum cartridges but I'm hoping to do a lot of shooting with a smaller cartridges in the future and compare the cartridges in similar weight rifles. Perhaps I will be able to settle the questions in my own mind at least

Yep that's really all you can do! Get a few rifles and do some testing for yourself. I did it, and enjoyed it for sure. I'd basically never shot a gun smaller than a 28 Nosler for 4 years. Then a I got a couple of smaller cartridges for fun, and realized they're quite fun, and also very capable killers.

If I could only have two guns now at this point, it would be a 7-300 NMI and a 22 CM. But I get to have 3, so I have that 6 PRC also.

Which @Barehandlineman11 just finished up and we're naming it "elk slayer"…… . Totally joking. He probably wouldn't have even built it if I said it was strictly for elk lol.

That'll cover a big spectrum of animals and ranges as well as shooting for practice and shooting for business haha

 

[Phil Rizzo]

that's a great looking unit!

 

[mrjashu]

That's logical. But valid data is valid data. If I develop a load that's .3 for 5 shots it's plenty valid enough every time I pull the trigger 5 times than at what point am I just wasting time and money on pulling the trigger to collect data?

That's great for load dev, sounds like you've got a good shooting setup that you're confident in.
What I was really referring to with rifle/load/position is all three together. You can add time pressure in there as well which they discuss in the videos. So compromised field positions, under time pressure. I'm practicing that anyway right? So doing that for 10-20 shots doesn't seem like a waste of time and money. Anyway that's what I meant when I mentioned 10 shot groups, not shooting off a bench.

 

[mrjashu]

Yep that's really all you can do! Get a few rifles and do some testing for yourself. I did it, and enjoyed it for sure. I'd basically never shot a gun smaller than a 28 Nosler for 4 years. Then a I got a couple of smaller cartridges for fun, and realized they're quite fun, and also very capable killers.

If I could only have two guns now at this point, it would be a 7-300 NMI and a 22 CM. But I get to have 3, so I have that 6 PRC also.

Which @Barehandlineman11 just finished up and we're naming it "elk slayer"……
View attachment 582635

That'll cover a big spectrum of animals and ranges as well as shooting for practice and shooting for business haha

Very nice!

I can hear this conversation with my wife. "Honey I'm just getting a few more rifles to test a theory I read about on the Internet. C'mon dear it's for science!"

 

[Barehandlineman11]

Yep that's really all you can do! Get a few rifles and do some testing for yourself. I did it, and enjoyed it for sure. I'd basically never shot a gun smaller than a 28 Nosler for 4 years. Then a I got a couple of smaller cartridges for fun, and realized they're quite fun, and also very capable killers.

If I could only have two guns now at this point, it would be a 7-300 NMI and a 22 CM. But I get to have 3, so I have that 6 PRC also.

Which @Barehandlineman11 just finished up and we're naming it "elk slayer"……
View attachment 582635

That'll cover a big spectrum of animals and ranges as well as shooting for practice and shooting for business haha

I dont approve of elk hunting with this gun too be publicly clear.