Run the 215 Berger at 3250 and run your numbers again. Compare apples to apples.
Great discussion.
- Thread starter Huntnful
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Never argue with a donkey, wastes your time and annoys the donkey.
Regardless of what you say, they circle back to the stretch cavity, wound channel, terminal ballistics, it's easy to shoot, yada, yada all while denying their ability to put that small bullet in the perfect spot that leads downstream to a recovered animal.
This little/big argument is only relative to the ability of the person using it and 98% of the hunters on the planet are not capable of following thru using a small caliber, they just lack the ability to make it happen.
FTR, I include myself in that 98%
Huntnful
Well-Known Member
You can't just accept the comparison for what it is? Everyone wants to talk about ballistics, and a 300 win mag is certainly touted as an excellent elk catridge. Now that actual ballistics are brought up, now I need to compare it to a 30-338 Lapua improved?
I'm not arguing one way or another. Just shedding light on things.
TexasPride
Member
I love stick shifts (got a '76 Ford Highboy with a granny 4 speed).
I've been chopping line with a machete through the East Texas jungles for 24 years for a living (land surveyor), often in 100°/90% humidity days.
I'm 51 years old and shot 30-06 and 45-70 for most of my life.
All that being said… I hate recoil.
Axl
Well-Known Member
I have a 8# 416 Rigby. I'm less than 2 hours from you. I will pay for the gas in your stick shift if you can shoot it 10 times prone without your nose bleeding, your collar bone snapping, or you losing consciousness.
Rflshootr
Well-Known Member
As stated before, I can shoot my large caliber rifles as good as I can small. Obviously there's extreme ends of the spectrum where that may not be so true. But in a general sense I don't believe the case that small caliber rifles make a shooter more accurate in a hunting situation. If you practice with your equipment and become competent, with today's recoil management I believe that the average person can become accurate with larger calibers. I have, everyone I know has...surely I'm not the only one experiencing this phenomenon. Muzzle brakes are amazing, use them.
I have a friend that's a die hard small caliber guy, he hates the noise and percussion of brakes. He used to whine about the recoil of larger calibers until with today's brakes he couldn't really whine much more cuz my properly braked 7mags recoil less than his little rifles that aren't braked. So now he's literally just being a "pansie" because my rifles hurt his ears.
I have a friend that's a die hard small caliber guy, he hates the noise and percussion of brakes. He used to whine about the recoil of larger calibers until with today's brakes he couldn't really whine much more cuz my properly braked 7mags recoil less than his little rifles that aren't braked. So now he's literally just being a "pansie" because my rifles hurt his ears.
mrjashu
Well-Known Member
I'm enjoying the discussion here guys, and thankful we can stay away from ad hominen comments for the most part. I am pretty much a neutral observer to this conversation. I don't have scores of animal kills under my belt to draw experience from so I look to the experience of others to help guide my decision....with a huge caveat. I don't respond well to feelings or emotional arguments, I like data or at least well reasoned hypothesis based on observation.
So pretend I'm the independent voter here. I don't have a team or a side but I do have questions.
The first is this.
"All other factors being equal (rifle weight, form factor, etc), can it generally be said that under most conditions any given shooter will shoot a rifle with less recoil better than one with more?"
By "any given shooter" I'm talking 95% of the hunting population that will pick up a rifle to hunt.
Would most people say "yes" to this question? I will tell you I'm leaning towards "yes" mostly because I've watched and listened to Eric Cortina a lot, including many of his interviews. It seems to me that cartridge choice for F-class (a very controlled shooting discipline in terms of position and rifle weight) comes down to a balance between reducing wind error and recoil management. I hear guys talk about 300wsm as a great F-class cartridge for example, but it requires a lot of effort to shoot it well. This tells me there is a difference that is probably magnified greatly by field positions and lighter weight rifles.
But I am curious if any of you out there have collected data on this. 10 shot groups with different rifles stepping up gradually in recoil? That might be interesting.
In either case the follow up is a choice balancing shoot-ability (biased towards small caliber) and wound channel size (biased towards large caliber).
This I presume is the personal choice aspect of this that generates so much discussion, and we should not expect everyone to agree on this....and that's okay.
PS
Perhaps I'm asking the wrong question. Maybe the real question is "under most conditions do I shoot a rifle with less recoil better than one with more"
So pretend I'm the independent voter here. I don't have a team or a side but I do have questions.
The first is this.
"All other factors being equal (rifle weight, form factor, etc), can it generally be said that under most conditions any given shooter will shoot a rifle with less recoil better than one with more?"
By "any given shooter" I'm talking 95% of the hunting population that will pick up a rifle to hunt.
Would most people say "yes" to this question? I will tell you I'm leaning towards "yes" mostly because I've watched and listened to Eric Cortina a lot, including many of his interviews. It seems to me that cartridge choice for F-class (a very controlled shooting discipline in terms of position and rifle weight) comes down to a balance between reducing wind error and recoil management. I hear guys talk about 300wsm as a great F-class cartridge for example, but it requires a lot of effort to shoot it well. This tells me there is a difference that is probably magnified greatly by field positions and lighter weight rifles.
But I am curious if any of you out there have collected data on this. 10 shot groups with different rifles stepping up gradually in recoil? That might be interesting.
In either case the follow up is a choice balancing shoot-ability (biased towards small caliber) and wound channel size (biased towards large caliber).
This I presume is the personal choice aspect of this that generates so much discussion, and we should not expect everyone to agree on this....and that's okay.
PS
Perhaps I'm asking the wrong question. Maybe the real question is "under most conditions do I shoot a rifle with less recoil better than one with more"
How about showing us 10, 20 or even 30 round groups from hunting shooting positions with your largest chambered rifle and do the same with the smallest legal on for your area.As stated before, I can shoot my large caliber rifles as good as I can small. Obviously there's extreme ends of the spectrum where that may not be so true. But in a general sense I don't believe the case that small caliber rifles make a shooter more accurate in a hunting situation. If you practice with your equipment and become competent, with today's recoil management I believe that the average person can become accurate with larger calibers. I have, everyone I know has...surely I'm not the only one experiencing this phenomenon. Muzzle brakes are amazing, use them.
I have a friend that's a die hard small caliber guy, he hates the noise and percussion of brakes. He used to whine about the recoil of larger calibers until with today's brakes he couldn't really whine much more cuz my properly braked 7mags recoil less than his little rifles that aren't braked. So now he's literally just being a "pansie" because my rifles hurt his ears.
Unless you are some minuscule group of people that shoot like a machine, you will not shoot the larger cartridge as well.
FireFlyFishing
Well-Known Member
Hah! Fair enough.
First round impacts is where the big bullets make a difference. Here in Montana the wind blows….a lot!
I can promise it's easier for me to make first round impacts with a .30 245berger vs a 105berger fired at similar velocity's at say 1000yds. Sure the 6mm might group better but the wind is going to blow the group around a lot more.
Mike, this is a hunting forum. I have zero need to post pictures of 10, 20 or 30 shot groups. It's rather irrelevant IMO. If this were a benchrest/target forum than I could see some validity to what I think you're scratching at. But.....beings that I'm a hunter, taking part in a discussion on a hunting forum...with regards to hunting scenarios, I stand by my experience that I have no problem continually and for the last 20 years, been able to shoot my larger caliber rifles as well as smaller ones. Again I feel we are moving goal posts by expanding unrealistic shot strings that are generally outside of the realm of hunting.
