Great discussion.

southpa said:
What I never understand is why some think that just because there's a population of us who do not agree with the idea that small calibers are acceptable for larger game that we are somehow trying to compensate for something. It's never ending. Any time this is brought up there's like this cult like effort from the small caliber guys to equate large calibers to poor shots or poor shooting skills. It's not that simple. It makes me think about who's really self-conscious.

My real issue with this small caliber narrative is that I think it's just pushes the line thats already been pushed. There is so much garbage out there these days relating to "Long Range" hunting it's kinda grotesk. Just flip on the YouTube and watch the junk. Guys with very little knowledge/skill are pushing limits on LIVE ANIMALS with systems they just bought over a counter. There is a limit to smaller calibers. Simple as that. Those limits are different with respect to shooting systems, knowledge and abilities and shot placement etc... we all know that. But my problem lies with the idea that In today's age, "Long range hunting" is mainstream. No real understanding or effort offered, just spend the money and youre a long range hunter. We are slowly transitioning from unskilled long range hunters to unskilled small caliber long range hunters who don't even know how to put any bullet in the center. It's seemingly getting worse.
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You know what, I never even thought of that perspective. The same people that want "turn key" 1000 yard rifles, hearing some info about how effective a 6mm bullet is (because it is), but then still never shooting it and becoming a more knowledgeable, better shooter. And now they have a smaller wound channel, and 20 more inches of wind drift at 1000 yards.

I see how that can cause issues 100%.

That also is not the premise of the podcast or the information provided at all. Quite the opposite. He despises those people lol. The conversation is about shooting more, and spending more time behind the rifle and increasing hit rates.

It is tough to bring people into the conversation, that under no circumstances are going to familiarize themselves with a rifle and it's ballistics and wind drifts and recoil ect. They will ALWAYS be a problem, no matter the cartridge/caliber. They are just going to suck, and have massive issues eventually, no matter what they are shooting.

I see and understand your perspective though 100%
 
FWIW - Well, quite a few valid points here of which I am not personally qualified to weigh in on. But having friends with first hand accounts and read a fair amount from those who have been-there, done-that in Africa and in war zones - seems many of those folks point to a single idea. Folks trusting in smaller calibers/cartridges are not shooting at things that (a) bite back or (b) shoot back at them.
 
Different applications. An animal gets hit and thinks dang, something stung me, if I run away from it, maybe it won't hurt.

A "thing" shooting back gets hit and thinks dang, I just got hit, I guess I'll lay down here and die or wait for medevac.

A biting thing...well if you are going to shoot them with a small caliber...Darwin may have been right on somethings.

True story, one of mine shot one with a 308 and didn't dump him, followed up with a 5.56 and down it went...Hopped up on drugs, dead on his feet and didn't know it, who knows...
 
Huntnful said:
Here's a good question. 2 guys want to go elk hunting with you in the morning. You know your shooting situation is going to be 400-600 yards out in an AG field.

One guy has a 9lb 6 PRC. Shooting 109 ELDM's at 3300fps. He's on his second barrel of the year from practicing so much. He's got excellent drop data out past 1000 yards.

Second guy has an 8lb 338 Lapua. He has absolutely no recoil management and has been to the range one time to sight in his rifle with 3 shots. He says he good to 600 no problem.

Which one you picking to actually kill the animal?
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Silly question.
 
RichCoyle said:
Silly question.
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Yeah I skewed the question to go in my favor, just to make a point that the shooter and his skill set is FAR MORE important than just simply shooting a big caliber. Same shooter, same skill set, but big 6mm vs. big .338 cartridges, the .338 100% has the potential to kill faster.
 
Huntnful said:
Trust me, I was in the same boat 100%. But the actual photos are pretty hard to refute. As well as the whitetail does with exits the size of soccer balls from big 30-338 and 162 A-max's (Which is what he was referring to).


I shot a doe about 140 yards away with a .300 WM firing some kind of target bullet almost fifty years ago. I saw something fly upward off the deer. I discovered it was the near side shoulder blade. The exit was large enough to put a small cantaloupe in and went halfway through the deer. The sun sparkled off all the tiny lead particle everywhere throughout the exit wound. I never forgot that sight and switched to Barnes X as soon as I heard of them. Also, I switched to Nosler Partition until then.
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Huntnful said:
Yeah I skewed the question to go in my favor, just to make a point that the shooter and his skill set is FAR MORE important than just simply shooting a big caliber. Same shooter, same skill set, but big 6mm vs. big .338 cartridges, the .338 100% has the potential to kill faster.
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Why do guys skewe these scenarios in the favor of the point they want to make? Because they are biased. I've always tried to get the small caliber cult to pull their heads out and compare everything as equal as possible. Same bullet design, same knowledge/skill, same muzzle velocity, same comfortability with shooting each weapon, same distance, same POI, literally the only difference is caliber/bullet weight. A little bullet will hit its limits (with respect to distances, wind deflection and terminal performance) long before the larger ones. This is not a debate. Although the cult will ignore this. At the end of the day larger/heavier bullets will outperform smaller ones. Might be at 600 yards, might be at 800, might be at 1200. But one things for certain, your baby bullets will fall to larger ones. Nothing can go forever but little bullets dang sure ain't going as far as big ones, in the whole spectrum of long range!
 
southpa said:
Why do guys skewe these scenarios in the favor of the point they want to make? Because they are biased. I've always tried to get the small caliber cult to pull their heads out and compare everything as equal as possible. Same bullet design, same knowledge/skill, same muzzle velocity, same comfortability with shooting each weapon, same distance, same POI, literally the only difference is caliber/bullet weight. A little bullet will hit its limits (with respect to distances, wind deflection and terminal performance) long before the larger ones. This is not a debate. Although the cult will ignore this. At the end of the day larger/heavier bullets will outperform smaller ones. Might be at 600 yards, might be at 800, might be at 1200. But one things for certain, your baby bullets will fall to larger ones. Nothing can go forever but little bullets dang sure ain't going as far as big ones.
Click to expand...
Ahh you mean like when our troops discovered the 556 sucked at range in Afghanistan and had to pull M14s out of moth balls?
 
southpa said:
Why do guys skewe these scenarios in the favor of the point they want to make? Because they are biased. I've always tried to get the small caliber cult to pull their heads out and compare everything as equal as possible. Same bullet design, same knowledge/skill, same muzzle velocity, same comfortability with shooting each weapon, same distance, same POI, literally the only difference is caliber/bullet weight. A little bullet will hit its limits (with respect to distances, wind deflection and terminal performance) long before the larger ones. This is not a debate. Although the cult will ignore this. At the end of the day larger/heavier bullets will outperform smaller ones. Might be at 600 yards, might be at 800, might be at 1200. But one things for certain, your baby bullets will fall to larger ones. Nothing can go forever but little bullets dang sure ain't going as far as big ones, in the whole spectrum of long range!
Click to expand...
No I'm not biased. I don't even hunt with a 6mm, how would I be biased?

I agree with everything you stated here as well.
 
I think a point that still isn't getting brought up, that was very clear in the info, is that recoil vs. shootability was the driving factor of the whole conversation. And smaller bullets and they're capable sized wound channels fit into that well in regards to recoil. But recoil is the catalyst to, being able to physically shoot the rifle better. So if you bring the recoil down, with rifle weights and muzzle devices, you just bring up the caliber/cartridge and bullet weight if you want to.

He said, and I can't prove this, but above 14 ft lbs of felt recoil if where shooters start to measurably drop off in accuracy, in compromised field shooting positions. AKA, not prone off a bipod and rear rest. I believe it based off shooting my own systems though

I have a 9lb 22CM with no muzzle device. It's shooting 80 ELDM's at 3300fps. It has 9 ft lbs of recoil. It actually has legitimate felt recoil.

I have a 10lb 6PRC. Currently shooting 109 ELDM's at 3170fps. It should have 14 ft lbs of recoil, but it has a muzzle brake, so it's probably closer to 7 ft lbs. It definitely has less felt recoil than the 22CM.

I have a 10lb 7-300NMI shooting 180 ELDM's at 3160. It should have 34 ft lbs of felt recoil. But again, it has a muzzle brake so it should be around 17 ft lbs of felt recoil. I feel like this is super manageable recoil, as seen in that aoudad video. But I doubt I would shoot it as good as the 22 CM in a bunch of random field positions at say, 600 yards if I shot them side by side from many different positions. But I also doubt I would miss any vital sized targets with it, that I wouldn't miss with the 22CM
 

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