First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

[westcliffe01]

How can that be ? The sponsors of this site all use Nightforce FFP scopes do they not ? Does Nightforce even make a SFP scope ? FFP is not "new" since it has been the defacto standard for European hunters for ages.

There was a poll on here and sfp rules this site.It may be different at the Hide,Im not there much,but more tactical crowd.I went ffp a number of years back and now I want all ffp.There has been more ffp showing up and more demand.Which is good for me because more product at a better price for me also.

 

[MMERSS]

So I am still in this discussion and think there could be more good come from it.

Jeff

Broz,

For quick shoot situations I prefer FFP to SFP. I haven't shot LR tactical practice for the past few years but when I did I definitely prefer FFP when stress and time could make all the difference, FFP has the advantage. The best part of the tactical practice…… you and everyone else reading this post purchased the shooting systems. For that I say thank you. I vote FFP to SFP for tactical shooting and LR hunting if that is what your system is built for and that is how you want to practice.

With that said, if you look in my gun cabinet all of my personal LR guns sport an SFP scope with the majority being the NXS with NP-R1. Why. I've yet to run into an elk that shoots back. My stress levels hunting compared to also being a target are completely on different levels. As you know, everyone is different with their stress control while shooting under different conditions. The vast majority of my LR hunting situations have allowed ample time to dial in non-standard conditions to the turrets without having to worry about a quick holdover. If the animal moves, I let it go. I take as much time as needed to double check data and the non-standards. I prefer the NP-R1 with SFP to the FFP under this circumstance.

Now, if elk start to develop laser beams attached to their heads and shoot back, I'm throwing all my SFP's to the curb and going to all FFP's.

If you ever want to run your LRKM with the ATACR against the 338 AM with the trusty NXS 5.5-22X56 NP-R1 at the same time let me know. I'm a few months out from completion and don't live too far away. We could call it "The battle of the beasts." I'm betting on the AM, I think you may have a different opinion.

 

[Broz]

Broz,

For quick shoot situations I prefer FFP to SFP. I haven't shot LR tactical practice for the past few years but when I did I definitely prefer FFP when stress and time could make all the difference, FFP has the advantage. The best part of the tactical practice…… you and everyone else reading this post purchased the shooting systems. For that I say thank you. I vote FFP to SFP for tactical shooting and LR hunting if that is what your system is built for and that is how you want to practice.

I am a bit confused by the above, but in my first post I stated something like 700 yards and beyond I preferred SFP. And I also stated I never hurry a LR shot. I will agree that for Tac comp.'s where one needs to use hold over only,, then FFP would be your choice due to the time factor. But when we say "LR hunting" then we need to add the distance to the equation. For a calculate LR or ELR Cold Bore shot, lets say 700 to 2000 plus, I will dial in and my SFP will be the choice for me for reasons posted before in this thread.

With that said, if you look in my gun cabinet all of my personal LR guns sport an SFP scope with the majority being the NXS with NP-R1. Why. I've yet to run into an elk that shoots back. My stress levels hunting compared to also being a target are completely on different levels. As you know, everyone is different with their stress control while shooting under different conditions. The vast majority of my LR hunting situations have allowed ample time to dial in non-standard conditions to the turrets without having to worry about a quick holdover. If the animal moves, I let it go. I take as much time as needed to double check data and the non-standards. I prefer the NP-R1 with SFP to the FFP under this circumstance.

Exactly!! That is what I do and use today. The only thing I will ad is to the part about the animal moving. I would simply redial for that distance unless he is out of my comfort zone for the conditions. As the two antelope in my earlier example. I shot one at 1005, they moved to 1285, I redialed in and took the second one.


Now, if elk start to develop laser beams attached to their heads and shoot back, I'm throwing all my SFP's to the curb and going to all FFP's.

If you ever want to run your LRKM with the ATACR against the 338 AM with the trusty NXS 5.5-22X56 NP-R1 at the same time let me know. I'm a few months out from completion and don't live too far away. We could call it "The battle of the beasts." I'm betting on the AM, I think you may have a different opinion.

As for the challenge between the AM and the LRKM. Well I prefer to just meet up for some friendly cold bore rock busting. Then you can tell the story if you want no matter how it turns out. I have been out shot before, but lets talk about that after it happens.

Jeff

 

[westcliffe01]

Jeff, the only thing I would like to add to the conversation is that the concept of "long" needs perspective.

A 5 second shot window could mean that 300 yards is long. How far is long if you have 20 seconds to shoot from first sight ? What if you are not shooting at a game animal, but one that is causing harm or damage ? If you are in the second day of a 14 day season and have 1 tag to fill, it is a different kind of pressure to when you see a coyote pop out of the brush that has probably already killed 4 sheep and caused you over $1000 in financial damage.

I would honestly say that my shooting window has never been more than 30 seconds total with coyotes and sometimes it has been 10 seconds when they pop out of cover then run back into it. If I had more time, then certainly the reticle would have been of less significance.. Usually, the shot comes right at dawn, often before the sun has climbed above the local horizon and I tend to spot the coyotes with the binoculars, then have to get on them with the rifle and by that time, I am lucky if my window is still 15 seconds long before they are either out of view or entering the next patch of thick brush.

Obviously this is a very case specific application but I feel that having the FFP reticle gives me 2 less things to do (dialing corrections) and I can in fact do them if the animal allows me the time. So far though, that has not happened. I will have to see how the lambing season goes this year, since that is going to be a powerful attractant, but the guard dog (great Pyrenees) has grown since last year, so the coyotes may be more careful with their approach to the herd.

 

[HARPERC]

"When the elephants fight its the grass that gets trampled" speaking for the grass this thread makes be a bit crazy. I'm looking for a scope to move out of medium range. About the time I think I've got it, someone credible post something that makes sense and pulls me back the other way. MMERS I like the way you separate tactical and LRH. All my scopes so far are SFP Leupolds. Broz I'm really looking forward to your ATACR review, that will likely be the deciding factor. I'm not likely to be as critical regarding reticle thickness as you are, but I am much more aware of it thanks to you. In the morning we head out to shoot some rocks. Unless plans change there will finally be a Nightforce in the group to check out first hand. If the shooting match comes to pass I'd like to be a fly on the wall.

 

[Broz]

The fact is, I shoot long range, not just to 700 yards now, but regularly to a mile and beyond. I much prefer the SFP for the FACT that it allows the target to grow in size as the magnification is increased while the cross hair lines remain the same size and appear finer on the target. This I prefer for a more precise point of aim on a long range target. Even at only 1000 yards.

Jeff

Jeff, the only thing I would like to add to the conversation is that the concept of "long" needs perspective.

A 5 second shot window could mean that 300 yards is long. How far is long if you have 20 seconds to shoot from first sight ? What if you are not shooting at a game animal, but one that is causing harm or damage ? If you are in the second day of a 14 day season and have 1 tag to fill, it is a different kind of pressure to when you see a coyote pop out of the brush that has probably already killed 4 sheep and caused you over $1000 in financial damage.

I would honestly say that my shooting window has never been more than 30 seconds total with coyotes and sometimes it has been 10 seconds when they pop out of cover then run back into it. If I had more time, then certainly the reticle would have been of less significance.. Usually, the shot comes right at dawn, often before the sun has climbed above the local horizon and I tend to spot the coyotes with the binoculars, then have to get on them with the rifle and by that time, I am lucky if my window is still 15 seconds long before they are either out of view or entering the next patch of thick brush.

Obviously this is a very case specific application but I feel that having the FFP reticle gives me 2 less things to do (dialing corrections) and I can in fact do them if the animal allows me the time.

To answer this lets review my very first post in this thread. Please note I specifically mentioned past 700 and 1000 yards. If the vast majority of my shots were going to be 300, 400 or 500 I would consider a Hold Over reticle. But my AR coyote rifle I use for calling and ambush on the ranch wears a SFP with a yardage turret out to 600 yards. I am zeroed at 200, if they are close I bust em. If they are 300 or beyond I range, dial to that yardage and engage them. This works well for me. The most recent one at 360 yards I took yesterday never complained once before he croaked. Now, this doesn't mean there are not other methods just as good or better. But this is what I choose and I am plenty happy with the results I get.

One more thing about all this. I think many people will agree , I know John Lazz did. That a shot past 800 yards using only reticle for a hold is stretching the window for hold over. There is a point where I feel Dialing in becomes the better choice. One reason is, if the wind is very strong at all, and the distance is too you could easily be in no mans land for a reticle hold. Example, my 300 win, 215 Berger, 1000 yards and a 12mph full value wind. You are at the bottom of a 20 moa reticle in the bottom view of the scope, and need to hold off about 6 moa for windage. Lining up those hash marks out there with no true point to hold could be tricky. So most will dial in elevation and hold for wind. But I will dial both and hold dead center with my crosshairs. If my first shot is off I will move my hold and send the follow up. Quick and easy with either FFP or SFP.

Jeff

 

[Broz]

Broz I'm really looking forward to your ATACR review, that will likely be the deciding factor. I'm not likely to be as critical regarding reticle thickness as you are, but I am much more aware of it thanks to you. In the morning we head out to shoot some rocks. Unless plans change there will finally be a Nightforce in the group to check out first hand. If the shooting match comes to pass I'd like to be a fly on the wall.

I am gearing up for it now with an ATACR along side a NXS for a ruler. And I ain't farting around long under 1000. I am stoked and looking forward to it.

Enjoy your day shooting rocks. That is my favorite pass time.gun)

Jeff

 

[sp6x6]

How can that be ? The sponsors of this site all use Nightforce FFP scopes do they not ? Does Nightforce even make a SFP scope ? FFP is not "new" since it has been the defacto standard for European hunters for ages.

No they do not and do a search and look at poll.Night force has very few ffp overings,one is the new Beast

 

[angus-5024]

I think that while FFP is better for 95% of shooters, I also think that SFP makes more sense (maybe cents) to 95% of shooters.

For anyone shooting to even 1500 yards in hunting scenarios, FFP is going to be best (i feel). Haveing those reticule substensions always bang on without any thinking is a HUGE time saver. Thats why I see more and more predator hunters going FFP, time is always a factor. As Orkan said, its easy to get a thicker reticule to quarter a target out to farther than most of use can shoot. The simplicity of the reticule outways the reticule size. The exception is for guys like Broz, Shawn,Kirby, Joel Russo and the EXTREME range shooters that are looking for 2km + shots.

While I said FFP is better for most guys, they sure arent practical on the $$. Thats why I say SFP makes more sense to most guys. To step into a good FFP you are looking at alot more money than a decent Leupy, with the exception possibly being the PST's. A fair number of SFP scopes have a corresponading number to go with the magnifacation that works with there reticule, making it a wash.

I for one dont need FFP to be fast with my reticule, but if there is ever a day when I have the money for something like a Premier or S&B, it'll be FFP.

 

[Broz]

I am no Bench Rest shooter so I will need help with this. But I do have a hunch. Since Bench Rest competitors are shooting for group size and center target scores what are they using and why?

Jeff

 

[rick523]

I am no Bench Rest shooter so I will need help with this. But I do have a hunch. Since Bench Rest competitors are shooting for group size and center target scores what are they using and why?

Jeff

Broz, I am not a benchrest shooter, and will not speak for all of them. That said the guy that built my last long range rifle is, the only scopes he uses are Nightforce NXS' in sfp. He has won more than his fair share of matches. There must be a reason he prefers them.

 

[orkan]

Set distance competition. Not much of a need for FFP there. My smallbore bench gun certainly does not wear a FFP. This surely isn't a revelation.

 

[Broz]

Set distance competition. Not much of a need for FFP there. My smallbore bench gun certainly does not wear a FFP. This surely isn't a revelation.

Oh, it's not? I politely disagree.

The title of this thread is. "First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane" If we are comparing both and their uses, and if we determine that a FFP is best suited for tactical competitions, then why is it not important to discuss what is best for bench rest even if the target distance is known? Come to think of it, I know the distance of every thing I shoot before I pull the trigger.

Now, is there a BR shooter that is willing to explain why they prefer SFP? I am curious if it is due to some of the reasons I prefer SFP for my long range uses.

Jeff

 

[rick523]

Set distance competition. Not much of a need for FFP there. My smallbore bench gun certainly does not wear a FFP. This surely isn't a revelation.

ok, can I ask why since you have been preaching ffp this whole thread. I am not wanting a ****ing match just would like an honest answer as to why you are using sfp for this purpose. Again I am not a BR shooter, that is why I am curious.