First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

[Broz]

It is YOU that took it into the gutter... not I.

It's nice to know you are goaded into that kind of behavior via PM's. You can't concede that you can do nearly anything SFP optics can do with FFP optics, so you constantly resort to implying I'm just a snake oil salesman, that will say anything to move product. Yes, I've reached my limit with that crap. How many times you expect to openly assault someone's character before they say something?

Orkin, let it go man. It is you taking things wrong, way wrong. And I disagree, as do others that it is your attitude and rudeness that is taking the thread down.

I am not being "goaded" in PM's, so sorry sir,wrong again. Just some kind thank you's, and I will admit some comment on your behavior.

As far as the snake oil salesman comment, well that is all in your mind. It is funny and I would like claim it, but I said nothing of the sort. So please chill a bit.
My comments about me not selling scopes was meant to show I am open to discussion without being sided. Not to discredit you. Sorry if you thought otherwise.

Now the world class shooter part was a little dig, but not worse than any you had gave me. But hey, read your post prior to that. It is what you yourself had just said. You stated you shoot competition all the time in many disciplines and win often. Did you not?

Anyway, take a deep breath, try to focus and get over it. This discussion and thread is not over yet. Lets keep it informative. For crying out loud, I and many other are trying to learn something. Even if you don't need to.

Jeff

PS: that last line was a tiny dig, just to add some humor I felt is needed at this time.

 

[extreme]

Orkan.

You really need to just stop at this point..the guy you are arguing with will never concede..as a sponcer on this site you probley just
**** all over yourself..there is a group of guys on this site that follow his every word..right or wrong that,s it.then there are guy,s on here like myself or in this case you that will never be correct...in all fairness you are both correct,so why the hell can,t it be that those who prefer ffp do so and sfp do there thing. I have both and use each accordingly..and yes they will take what i just posted as bulls$$t also.. But according to len backus it,s keep it civil and try to learn from each other..i have watched you on other videos and you are very opionated ,but then so is he ..it would have been a lot better if you guy,s met in sept.or oct.as was planned to, finalize it and then post the results.

 

[orkan]

Sorry Braz, but I don't find it amusing when people attack my character. You want me to continue, and get this thread on an even keel again? Then be a man and apologize for insinuating over and over that I will push an ideal simply to sell a product.

I have absolutely no motivation to continue with that kind of crap going on. This isn't that important of a discussion for me to continue to endure those kinds of ridiculous character attacks.

 

[orkan]

in all fairness you are both correct,so why the hell can,t it be that those who prefer ffp do so and sfp do there thing.

Because its the SFP crowd claiming FFP can't get it done in certain situations... Not the other way around. They describe how they tried it once and didn't like it. Then they cite something completely opposite of my personal experience as a reason why it didn't work. Someone asks about FFP and they get instructed in all the ways that it won't work. Well that's where I try to instruct them in the ways that they DO work. At each turn, while providing evidence that it works, it's continually shut down.

As for my sponsorship here... It's pretty straight forward. If it pays off, I'll continue sponsoring. If it doesn't... I'll stop. Pretty simple. I could care less how many "groupies" braz has. One's number of followers has very little to do with this discussion. Like I really have a motivation to show up and shoot with someone that thinks I only speak because I have a financial motivation to do so. No thanks. I have better things to do with my time than hang around someone with that opinion of me. Those attacks being unchecked will certainly weigh in on my decision whether to remain a sponsor. If the cool-kids club is successful at making sure FFP always ends up on the bottom of every discussion, then it won't make much financial sense to be here will it? That doesn't mean I'm financially motivated... that just means there is no point in hanging around somewhere where what I'm selling is so strongly opposed. No one dare shoot FFP if they want to "fit in!"

I went into it knowing I'd be in the minority on this site. Doesn't mean the membership here doesn't deserve a glimpse to the other side. If it were as easy as "we're both correct" then I could easily settle with that. Yet that's not where it is. Due to the sheer number of SFP shooters on this forum vs FFP... it's always left with FFP being somehow inferior, and SFP being better. Well I won't leave that alone. Those whom come read this discussion, will at least know that there are people effectively and easily using FFP reticles to hunt.

 

[JackinSD]

I have sat back and watched this thread go exactly where I fully expected it to go. "I'm right and you're wrong", "Mine's bigger than yours", Blah, blah, blah.

I am, however, a little suprised and disturbed by a sponsor being so deep into this thread, and insulting a member. Not that I particular care for the attitude of the member either.

A topic that should have lasted a few pages, and has been strung out for two guys to see who can **** the furthest.

Two guys that have alot of experience, knowledge, and respect that could be much better served. Unfortunately, those above accolades are being diminished very very quickly.

 

[orkan]

I am, however, a little suprised and disturbed by a sponsor being so deep into this thread, and insulting a member. Not that I particular care for the attitude of the member either.

Perhaps I should have learned when to back down from a fight? It's a skill I've never been good at. Yet it's a source of what makes our company special. We fight for our customers with the same tenacity. I could easily ride the middle of the road, and end up with more people in my "posse," but that's never been my style.

Having said that, you are right. I feel it has turned into a ****ing contest, and it's not serving anyone. I can put my wang away if Broz can do the same. There came a point when I truly stopped listening to anything he had to say. I think it was after the first time he insinuated my arguments were financially motivated.

I can ratchet down just as easily as I ratchet up, so if things are going to start to get civil... I'll play along.

 

[extreme]

the end

 

[JackinSD]

"Perhaps I should have learned when to back down from a fight? It's a skill I've never been good at."

I think there is alot of that going around. I know us South Dakotans are made that way.

 

[bigngreen]

You know this site used to have very stiff discussions, very good info used to come out of them, feelers got hurt but that's going to be apart of any strong conversation. This site has been lacking stiff debate and discussion, I don't agree with Orkan but he's made me do a lot of research and I do applaud him for hanging in there, I have much more interest in sponsors that are engaged in debate on the forum than the ones that simply post stuff for sale and get out!!

 

[orkan]

I have much more interest in sponsors that are engaged in debate on the forum than the ones that simply post stuff for sale and get out!!

Thanks bigngreen... That is my thought exactly.

 

[yobuck]

about 35 years ago i was sitting on one of our pa lookouts glassing for deer
along with my then young son. i found a small rack buck at about 750 and was going to let my son shoot it. or at least at it. i got him on the deer with his glasses then i got on the gun to find it in the scope. (we use portable benches for the most part in pa) after i got the gun on the deer i was going to get back on my glasses and spot for him.
about the time i was ready the buck dropped and slid down the hill aways.
a second later we heard the shot. i knew some other hunters were on another lookout up the valley from us. awhile later we saw a couple guys on their way up to retreive the deer. looking thru my large tripod mounted glasses it wasent a problem recognising one of them. that evening we went to their camp to break stones about shooting (our) deer. i was introduced to the shooter who just happened to be dick thomas. dick was the father of the present owner of premier reticles. i had spoken with him numerous times by phone and had him do work on scopes for me prior to that. at that point he only worked on leupolds. he installed quite a few multible dot reticles in scopes for me and others i know including larry the camp owner.
im still using those scopes today. the dots increase in size as power is raised. for that reason he would always ask what power we wanted to use for the dot size. i always chose 10x even on the higher magnification scopes. i remember very well dick discussing first vs second focal plane. frankly it meant nothing to me. frankly it still dosent.
i can tell you more bucks were killed in pa back then then are now regardless
of the great new scopes. reason of coarse there were more deer.
the vast majority of kills are under 1000 yds.
in pa at least theres a good reason for that.
most times conditions are such that seeing game beyond that distance is difficult even with very good glasses.
so at least from my viewpoint the discussion here is just that, a discussion.
theres very little practicle reason for the argument.
for the average guy who just wants to kill an animal at long range all of this means absolutly nothing. there are lots of quality scopes out there that are more than adequate for the job. including some very old ones.
by the way i do own a very large 338 into which i stuff 137 gr of powder.
on top of it is an 8x32 nightforce. and it would be the first one id throw overboard if forced to choose.
having fun shooting at rocks is one thing.
but if you like the taste of gravey thats another thing.

 

[Broz]

My comments about me not selling scopes was meant to show I am open to discussion without being sided. Not to discredit you. Sorry if you thought otherwise. .

Then be a man and apologize for insinuating over and over that I will push an ideal simply to sell a product.

I did that first thing this am. See my self-quoted post above that I posted before you asked for it.

Because its the SFP crowd claiming FFP can't get it done in certain situations...

I never said this at all., I don't think anyone did, at least not in this thread. I only stated what I prefer to use and why. Is that wrong?

There came a point when I truly stopped listening to anything he had to say..

I believe this 100% and I feel it was way early on. You keep saying you are upset because people say that SFP's will do things that FFP can't "pull off".. Orkin please reconsider this statement. I never said that, I said I prefer SFP and stated reasons why. I never said a shot could not be made with FFP. I only said I would be prefer a SFP in some instances (most in my type of shooting / hunting) The only exception is the mechanical difference in the relationship of the reticle size to target size and I stated I felt FFP was backwards for my needs and SFP worked better for my type of use. The SFP covers more target at low magnification and less target at high magnification. I prefer that for reasons already stated.. Really!! That is what I said.

I do tend to inset jokes and I will for the second time apologize if you feel it was an attack. But really, who needs to "man up"??

Now...........................................................................lightbulb

This discussion has got some wheels turning in my head. I plan to set out and do some testing for my own satisfaction and will post up here. I will post pictures if I can so all can see what I am interested in. I feel it will be good for all and this discussion. So I am still in this discussion and think there could be more good come from it. Orkin, I am not asking you to continue , nor asking you to be silent. That is a decision that is totally up to you. Makes no difference to me either way.

Jeff

 

[Tnwhip]

I got my Viper ffp mounted and sighted in today. The cross hairs do get thick the best I can tell it coveres about 3/4" maybe 1"at 200 yards on 24x. At 500yds I set up a Qt paint can and had no problem seeing or hitting it. I can't see where it will be a big problem deer hunting. I like FFP so far. I can't see any drawbacks yet. Only time will tell.

 

[sp6x6]

There was a poll on here and sfp rules this site.It may be different at the Hide,Im not there much,but more tactical crowd.I went ffp a number of years back and now I want all ffp.There has been more ffp showing up and more demand.Which is good for me because more product at a better price for me also.