Done with 215 Bergers

[Tumbleweed]

I just want to say I have a few factory boxes of the 215 Berger Hybrid that I bought for my 300 win mag to see if it liked them, it loves them. I looked all over this box and no where does it say not suited for hunting or anything even close to that. Would the term hybrid not mean it is suited for both? I have not got to test them on game yet.

Lots of misinformation on this thread about whether or not they should be used for hunting. The only reason Berger has not officially endorsed them for hunting is because they have not performed their own independent tests on this bullet. That was in a statement from Berger. They also stated that many hunters are having excellent results with them.
All you have to do is spend a little time researching the "215 Hybrid for hunting" and the overwhelming consensus is that they work fantastic. There will always be the naysayers...for any specific bullet. The "hybrid" term is just describing the design of the bullet's ogive. Berger's EH or EOL line of bullets has the same hybrid ogive design.

 

[richhymas]

Anybody have experience with this bullet and high shoulder shot on elk? Is it a good choice for that?

Personal experience of high shoulder shot on a mule deer at 285 yards with 215 berger and 300 win mag was fantastic. Many stories from others of effective high shoulder shots at long range for elk as well.

 

[sw282]

There's been mention of Berger price increases since new owners arrived... Bergers bullets appear to be 20%-30% MORE than comparable bullets from other makers. My 2008 MidwayUSA catalog shows Berger prices pretty much in line with the other makers

 

[CTK]

I am late to this thread. I have used Berger Hunting bullets successfully in my 280ai's and 6.5x47. Had one large buck that required a follow up with the 130 HVLD despite a well placed shot. I currently have a load worked up with the 175 Elite Hunter for my new 280ai. I shoot Whitetail deer with these guns. I was going to use the 175 EH for Mule Deer this November but did not get a tag. I would not use these bullets on anything larger and/or tougher than a deer. I get that some people swear by their performance on Elk. I have never shot an Elk and cannot opine on their toughness. Given the availability of other sleek but less frangible bullets, the Berger would be low on my list of bullets to use on my first Elk hunt. I cannot imagine that they would be a logical choice of bullets for a bear. This said, I know about as much about hunting bears and elk as Hunter Biden knows about the oil business.

 

[Zink14]

Not true. In fact they perform best at impact velocities around 2000 FPS. But again, tips must be open.

I've watched them fail miserably and repeatedly at lower velocity; I have no use for them in a hunting capacity

 

[Deleted member 107796]

When you start to analyze and compare recovered bullets that killed, the discussion is more objective than purely putting out opinions on what should've happened, IMO. You will find many examples of bullets, some match, that you thought would not kill well or would kill well, here:

Recovered Bullet Photo Gallery

Hey All, I though I'd start a thread where we can show images of recovered bullets. I hear a lot about failed bullets and why folks thought they failed. I figure here would be a collection of bullets that show the nature of their expansion and other characteristics, for bullets that mostly did...

www.longrangehunting.com

 

[richhymas]

When you start to analyze and compare recovered bullets that killed, the discussion is more objective than purely putting out opinions on what should've happened, IMO. You will find many examples of bullets, some match, that you thought would not kill well or would kill well, here:

Recovered Bullet Photo Gallery

Hey All, I though I'd start a thread where we can show images of recovered bullets. I hear a lot about failed bullets and why folks thought they failed. I figure here would be a collection of bullets that show the nature of their expansion and other characteristics, for bullets that mostly did...

www.longrangehunting.com

Sort of tricky from a data standpoint. On the one hand, animals that got away do not have all the info, but on the other hand, recovered animals are skewed towards good performance as after all, the animal was ultimately recovered.

only way to test for sure is to shoot hundreds of domesticelk at all sorts of shot angles and impact velocities.

I have heard of people Who dispatched hundreds of Ferrell donkeys in Australia. That would start to collect meaningful data as well. I think Texas hogs would also help, but you would need to use a 300 blackout to get the lowest impact velocity data.

 

[jimirwin]

I might as well be bringing up politics, but here it goes. I've been shooting the 215 Bergers out of my 300 win since 2017. Developed a great load shooting sub half minute at 2705 fps.

2017:

• Wife shot a cow at 260 yards. Didn't look for a blood trail because we could see the animal laying 40 yards away. Bullet worked. Wonderful.

2018:

• I shot at a cow. 300ish yards, poor rest, rushed/hectic shot. My wife, brother and I looked for about 1.5 hours. Couldn't find a drop of blood. No hair. Nothing. Three people looking all over for that long, we swore I missed. My other brother had a tag and ran off after the herd after my shot. He came back and asked if we found blood. No, we said. I guess I missed. He said alright. Let's head back to the truck. He started walking and we all followed closely behind. After a couple hundred yards he stepped to the side to reveal my dead elk laying there. He followed that elks tracks the whole way back to where we stood looking for blood and said that he didn't see a single drop. Granted this one is my fault; I hit it in the guts. I would still hope to see some sign of a hit.
• The next day my wife shot at a cow at 460 yards. She practices at this range all the time and I know she can make the shot. She doesn't shoot if she's not comfortable and confident. No sign at all of a hit. The four of us looked for half the day and couldn't find anything. She definitely could have missed, but after the previous day's display I would not be surprised at all if she hit it.
• Couple of weeks later I shot a cow at 260 yards. Ended up breaking the front shoulder and it only went 10 yards.

2019:

• I shot a bull at 40 yards. It ran maybe 70 yards with blood spewing everywhere and died. Happy
• My wife shot a bull at 260 yards and dropped it in it's tracks. Happy.

2020:

• This spring I shot a beautiful big color phased bear. 260 yards, prone, solid as a rock - I could hit a baseball with the gun at that range. The bear was over a hill and disappeared after the shot. It looked like I hit it in the scope. Walked up to it swearing I would find a beautiful dead bear. Nothing. No hair. No blood. Nothing. Looked all over. Nothing. Two weeks later I found a pretty monstrous (in my book) black bear skull in the same area. My bear? I'll never know for certain. Sickening.
• Monday I shot a bull. Thought it was dead. Walked up to it and it stood up. I shot it at ~30 yards broadside right in the boiler room. It flinched and kept standing. I shot it again, right in the boiler room. It took a couple steps and fell. I gave it 30 seconds and it was still pretty with it, so I shot it in the head. Still moving. Shot it in the head again and it finally faded slowly.

The first shot was at about 100 yards. None of the shots, except one head shot, had exit wounds. I found one copper jacket laying against the far side ribcage. The autopsy revealed that the internal organs were essentially fully intact. I saw no signs of the one "boiler room" shot. The other one, I saw a hole the size of my pointer finger through the lungs. I could barely stick my finger through the hole. The bullet didn't exit the far side of the animal, but penciled through the lungs - I would have expected to find a pencil exit.

I guess I'm starting to see why "not suitable for hunting" is stamped onto the box.

Unless somebody can show me what I'm doing wrong here, I'm pretty sure I'm done with the 215 hybrid. I might try the 205 Elite Hunters out. I'm also open to other suggestions.

What the heck?!! You say you've tried Berger 215s...OK...what bullet? Specifically???

A target bullet is designed to hold together through routine handling, fly true, and put a nice round hole at point of aim in a piece of paper, or splash mark on steel ... nothing more.
Sierra says don't use their MatchKings on game. I did use 168 grn MK in 1969 and regretted it terribly! Sierra's MK jackets are thin for their reasons. I had explosive expansion that didn't penetrate the neck of a 45 lb button buck. Sierra 165 grn GameKings have performed GREAT all the time, no exceptions!..for me and my son.

I got into Berger VLDs about 10 yrs ago for my 300 WSM long range rifle. 175 and 215 grain VLDs. Suggested by a target shooting ace. Also tried MKs for comparison to the 175 grn VLDs. Good but not quite AS good.
Talked with Walt Berger about their use on game. He said hunters have reported great success. Would failures have been reported to him? Berger target bullets have thick jackets to resist deformation before, during and after flight to target. Results reported here by the same guy report both great and poor performance on game. Go figger! Slow learner?

So why frequent a forum such as this if you refuse to learn from what's posted?

Bullets are cheap compared to a hunting rifle or hunting trip.

 

[Deleted member 107796]

There is a lot of data in that thread including wound analysis from many angles. Good stuff for those of us that load many types and brands of bullets.

 

[fishingstockwell]

NO bullet is perfect, and if you ask enough people, you will find failures with every single bullet out there.

I have been hunting western big game for 30 years and have killed 20+ elk, and many more deer. I've lost count, and I haven't lost a single one with a rifle. I am not a long range expert. Normal ranges for hunting scenarios are typically 200-600 yards The majority of elk I've shot, have been shot with Nosler accubonds, and almost all had the same exact result. Shot through the lungs or heart, they run 100 or so yards and tip over dead. There are good exit holes and blood trails.

I switched to the 215 Berger a number of years ago when I became more interested in longer range hunting, and every experience with them has been the same. When shot behind the shoulder the bullet goes in, explodes, and the elk drops where it stood. I have not had one exit, and there is rarely any blood at the scene of the kill, other than from the animals mouth. I frequently recover the base of the jacket under the far hide, and there isn't much left. They are frangible. They come apart violently. They are also very accurate and have performed flawlessly for me. I can imagine that there are better bullets for poorly placed shots, which will leave a better blood trail. Personally, I hated the panicked feeling of watching elk run off with boiler room shots from bonded bullets. That being said, I believe the original Nosler AB To be one of the best all around bullets ever made.

The only bullet failure I have had on an elk was with a 200 grain LRX that hit a 500 lb Tule Elk square in the chest. The elk needed to be dispatched when I walked up to it. The bullet was recovered between the shoulders with all four petals broken off, and Nothing but perfectly round .308 base of the bullet. It killed the animal, as I assume most other "bullet failures" do, but I didn't like the performance.

Strange things happen to different combinations of metal when they strike flesh at speeds from 1800-3000 ft per second, and I'm not sure that performance can be 100% predictable under varying conditions, speeds, and impact locations.

What I know is from experience. Bonded, partition and monolithic bullets will penetrate better, and give better blood trails, but I've never seen animals drop in their tracks like I have since I switched to Berger's. Maybe a good bonded bullet, like the Nosler AB is the best choice for most, in case of a poor shoot and tracking needed. I prefer to watch them drop in their tracks and will continue to use the 215 Berger, until it fails me.

Best of luck finding the perfect bullet for your preference of performance. There is something out there for everyone, from highly frangible to solid monos. Use what you are most comfortable with, and most of all a bullet you can put in the boiler room.

I hope everyone has a great safe and successful season. I shot my CA antelope in August, just got home yesterday, with my second season CO buck and bull, so the season is done for me.

 

[fishingstockwell]

NO bullet is perfect, and if you ask enough people, you will find failures with every single bullet out there.

I have been hunting western big game for 30 years and have killed 20+ elk, and many more deer. I've lost count, and I haven't lost a single one with a rifle. I am not a long range expert. Normal ranges for hunting scenarios are typically 200-600 yards The majority of elk I've shot, have been shot with Nosler accubonds, and almost all had the same exact result. Shot through the lungs or heart, they run 100 or so yards and tip over dead. There are good exit holes and blood trails.

I switched to the 215 Berger a number of years ago when I became more interested in longer range hunting, and every experience with them has been the same. When shot behind the shoulder the bullet goes in, explodes, and the elk drops where it stood. I have not had one exit, and there is rarely any blood at the scene of the kill, other than from the animals mouth. I frequently recover the base of the jacket under the far hide, and there isn't much left. They are frangible. They come apart violently. They are also very accurate and have performed flawlessly for me. I can imagine that there are better bullets for poorly placed shots, which will leave a better blood trail. Personally, I hated the panicked feeling of watching elk run off with boiler room shots from bonded bullets. That being said, I believe the original Nosler AB To be one of the best all around bullets ever made.

The only bullet failure I have had on an elk was with a 200 grain LRX that hit a 500 lb Tule Elk square in the chest. The elk needed to be dispatched when I walked up to it. The bullet was recovered between the shoulders with all four petals broken off, and Nothing but perfectly round .308 base of the bullet. It killed the animal, as I assume most other "bullet failures" do, but I didn't like the performance.

Strange things happen to different combinations of metal when they strike flesh at speeds from 1800-3000 ft per second, and I'm not sure that performance can be 100% predictable under varying conditions, speeds, and impact locations.

What I know is from experience. Bonded, partition and monolithic bullets will penetrate better, and give better blood trails, but I've never seen animals drop in their tracks like I have since I switched to Berger's. Maybe a good bonded bullet, like the Nosler AB is the best choice for most, in case of a poor shoot and tracking needed. I prefer to watch them drop in their tracks and will continue to use the 215 Berger, until it fails me.

Best of luck finding the perfect bullet for your preference of performance. There is something out there for everyone, from highly frangible to solid monos. Use what you are most comfortable with, and most of all a bullet you can put in the boiler room.

I hope everyone has a great safe and successful season. I shot my CA antelope in August, just got home yesterday, with my second season CO buck and bull, so the season is done for me.

 

[Don Titus]

I might as well be bringing up politics, but here it goes. I've been shooting the 215 Bergers out of my 300 win since 2017. Developed a great load shooting sub half minute at 2705 fps.

2017:

• Wife shot a cow at 260 yards. Didn't look for a blood trail because we could see the animal laying 40 yards away. Bullet worked. Wonderful.

2018:

• I shot at a cow. 300ish yards, poor rest, rushed/hectic shot. My wife, brother and I looked for about 1.5 hours. Couldn't find a drop of blood. No hair. Nothing. Three people looking all over for that long, we swore I missed. My other brother had a tag and ran off after the herd after my shot. He came back and asked if we found blood. No, we said. I guess I missed. He said alright. Let's head back to the truck. He started walking and we all followed closely behind. After a couple hundred yards he stepped to the side to reveal my dead elk laying there. He followed that elks tracks the whole way back to where we stood looking for blood and said that he didn't see a single drop. Granted this one is my fault; I hit it in the guts. I would still hope to see some sign of a hit.
• The next day my wife shot at a cow at 460 yards. She practices at this range all the time and I know she can make the shot. She doesn't shoot if she's not comfortable and confident. No sign at all of a hit. The four of us looked for half the day and couldn't find anything. She definitely could have missed, but after the previous day's display I would not be surprised at all if she hit it.
• Couple of weeks later I shot a cow at 260 yards. Ended up breaking the front shoulder and it only went 10 yards.

2019:

• I shot a bull at 40 yards. It ran maybe 70 yards with blood spewing everywhere and died. Happy
• My wife shot a bull at 260 yards and dropped it in it's tracks. Happy.

2020:

• This spring I shot a beautiful big color phased bear. 260 yards, prone, solid as a rock - I could hit a baseball with the gun at that range. The bear was over a hill and disappeared after the shot. It looked like I hit it in the scope. Walked up to it swearing I would find a beautiful dead bear. Nothing. No hair. No blood. Nothing. Looked all over. Nothing. Two weeks later I found a pretty monstrous (in my book) black bear skull in the same area. My bear? I'll never know for certain. Sickening.
• Monday I shot a bull. Thought it was dead. Walked up to it and it stood up. I shot it at ~30 yards broadside right in the boiler room. It flinched and kept standing. I shot it again, right in the boiler room. It took a couple steps and fell. I gave it 30 seconds and it was still pretty with it, so I shot it in the head. Still moving. Shot it in the head again and it finally faded slowly.

The first shot was at about 100 yards. None of the shots, except one head shot, had exit wounds. I found one copper jacket laying against the far side ribcage. The autopsy revealed that the internal organs were essentially fully intact. I saw no signs of the one "boiler room" shot. The other one, I saw a hole the size of my pointer finger through the lungs. I could barely stick my finger through the hole. The bullet didn't exit the far side of the animal, but penciled through the lungs - I would have expected to find a pencil exit.

I guess I'm starting to see why "not suitable for hunting" is stamped onto the box.

Unless somebody can show me what I'm doing wrong here, I'm pretty sure I'm done with the 215 hybrid. I might try the 205 Elite Hunters out. I'm also open to other suggestions.

Some people swear by them...others, like you and I swear at them...switch to 200 gr. Barnes LRX I think you will like the results...

 

[Mike Matteson]

I fail to understand why a person would use target bullets for hunting bullets. You might as well shot full jacket bullets from your rifle at big game. So you develop at target round shooting targets, that great, but not for hunting animals. It's states it on the box what the bullets are for. They don't work well on animals. Stupid is, stupid does. I fail to understand WHY. It look like they lost several animals to boot. They didn't think much about it either. So they use them again. So maybe the outcome will be different sometimes if I shot enough animals. Poor hunting practices! I guess they are smarter than the manufacture. Finally the light bulb came on. Others are saying they worked for me. I bet they have had problems too. It's make me madder than hell to see game being wasted!!!!

 

[bigngreen]

I fail to understand why a person would use target bullets for hunting bullets. You might as well shot full jacket bullets from your rifle at big game. So you develop at target round shooting targets, that great, but not for hunting animals. It's states it on the box what the bullets are for. They don't work well on animals. Stupid is, stupid does. I fail to understand WHY. It look like they lost several animals to boot. They didn't think much about it either. So they use them again. So maybe the outcome will be different sometimes if I shot enough animals. Poor hunting practices! I guess they are smarter than the manufacture. Finally the light bulb came on. Others are saying they worked for me. I bet they have had problems too. It's make me madder than hell to see game being wasted!!!!

I don't understand why guys can't figure out you can shoot an elk and look at the results for themselves and make a decision, easily the worst bullet I've shot into elk have been marketed as premium hunting bullets, I've never seen an elk in a whole pile of them killed need a second round after taking a 215 Berger, I've also never seen one make it out of sight after taking one. Not that some won't have a bad day but consistently over seeing hundreds killed with what you call target bullet and hunting bullets, I'll take target every day and twice on Sunday cause they kill faster and shoot better!!