Done with 215 Bergers

[Elk Hunter 338]

All I will say to the "target" bullet response is you are clueless if you actually believe a bullet is engineered to behave a certain way. Some "target" bullets have thin jackets and the "hunting" bullets of the same company will have thick jackets. Another company will be the exact opposite. Some trial and error has shown us some general differences in the way a cup and core bullet responds vs a bonded bullet but generalities are about as good as that gets. You can not engineer a bullet to behave a certain way on impact at all velocities. There is no free lunch. Bullets that expand great at 50 yards give up terminal performance at 800 yards and vice versa. Use what you want. The Berger 215 is one of the greatest hunting bullets ever created despite the the label says. Ethics are not allowed to be discussed on this forum but I can GUARANTEE more animals are shot at unethically with "hunting" bullets at running animals than are shot at long range with a well place 215 Berger.

The OP's post is full of speculation and anecdotal evidence at best. This is generally how the "this bullet sucks" argument starts. No facts. Usually no recovered bullet. Usually no recovered animal to prove where on the animal it was hit. I have lost track of the animals I alone have taken or seen taken with the 215 Berger and I have personally seen no better bullet.


The 3000fps remark makes no sense either because muzzle velocity has zero affect on terminal performance. Impact velocity is all that matters. A faster MV will give better performance farther away but impact velocity is the deciding factor.

Say what you will and I can promise you that I'm not even close to a noob,, it makes absolute perfect sense and you actually proved it in your last sentence ... that's the exact point i was making where every single berger I've ever shot does a freak of a lot better when driven to that 3k plus MV so YA the retained down range impact velocity in greater increasing probability of the bullet performing the way it should at any range near or far.

exhibit A. 215@2705 MV retained impact at 1000 is 1692 IV 1367 Energy
exhibit B. 215@3000 fps MV retained impact at 1000 is 1920 IV 1761 Energy

 

[Pdvdh]

Unless somebody can show me what I'm doing wrong here, I'm pretty sure I'm done with the 215 hybrid. I might try the 205 Elite Hunters out. I'm also open to other suggestions.

Move on past the Bergers and be done with it. You aren't the first, and won't be the last. You've already lost confidence in them, and will be second guessing them for another 4yrs, even if you should get better results.

As others have mentioned, good terminal performance is available from a number of other bullets to the longest yardage shots you've cited.

I tried the Berger bullets. It got to the point I meplat uniformed and hollow-pointed every Berger bullet I owned before I'd hunt with them. I spent $300 for the meplat uniforming tools. That effort was 100% successful in avoiding any additional failures to expand on large game. But I still didn't care for their terminal performance. Meat shredders.

I've migrated to lathe-turned monolithic bullets, and have been happy with them for four hunting seasons now.

A good rule of thumb with bullets is "live and let live". Some would be tickled pink with the performance of my meplat uniformed and counter sunk hollow-pointed Berger bullets. Great, if it makes them happy. Why should I care either way? Doesn't affect me either which way. They disappointed me, so I moved on with no regrets.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

A good rule of thumb with bullets is "live and let live". Some would be tickled pink with the performance of my meplat uniformed and counter sunk hollow-pointed Berger bullets. Great, if it makes them happy. Why should I care either way? Doesn't affect me either which way. They disappointed me, so I moved on with no regrets.

12 pages summed up in one paragraph

 

[FURMAN]

Say what you will and I can promise you that I'm not even close to a noob,, it makes absolute perfect sense and you actually proved it in your last sentence ... that's the exact point i was making where every single berger I've ever shot does a freak of a lot better when driven to that 3k plus MV so YA the retained down range impact velocity in greater increasing probability of the bullet performing the way it should!

exhibit A. 215@2705 MV retained impact at 1000 is 1692 IV 1367 Energy
exhibit B. 215@3000 fps MV retained impact at 1000 is 1920 IV 1761 Energy

I know you are not a "noob". We can argue semantics all day long if you wish. Impact velocity is all that matters. If you spit x bullet at y speed vs the same bullet at 300 fps faster obviously the faster bullet will have better bullet performance at farther distance. It just means you need to keep impact velocity in the bullets best performing velocity range.

You repeated the same sentence. It has absolutley nothing to do with muzzle velocity. You have said twice that they do better at 3k. Not a true statement, in full, as written/typed. They do best at impact velocities of around 1900-2200(very bullet dependent).

If you are shooting animals exactly at or very near the 1k mark then your statement is true. If you are shooting them at 300-500 yards your statement is not true. That is why I will always say muzzle velocity means very little. Impact velocity is what counts.

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

I never claimed the ELDMs would exit...Then again, they're really no different than Bergers in that aspect. Up close, stay off the shoulder and you'll be fine. They work better as impact velocity is slowed down. I got an exit on a bull elk at 1125 yards behind the shoulder the size of a golf ball. To each their own I guess.

 

[B-LOT Banga]

I wonder how much of the horror stories about any bullet can be traced back to bad shot placement or a complete miss with the shooter swearing the hit was perfect?

 

[Elk Hunter 338]

I know you are not a "noob". We can argue semantics all day long if you wish. Impact velocity is all that matters. If you spit x bullet at y speed vs the same bullet at 300 fps faster obviously the faster bullet will have better bullet performance at farther distance. It just means you need to keep impact velocity in the bullets best performing velocity range.

You repeated the same sentence. It has absolutley nothing to do with muzzle velocity. You have said twice that they do better at 3k. Not a true statement, in full, as written/typed. They do best at impact velocities of around 1900-2200(very bullet dependent).

If you are shooting animals exactly at or very near the 1k mark then your statement is true. If you are shooting them at 300-500 yards your statement is not true. That is why I will always say muzzle velocity means very little. Impact velocity is what counts.

C'mon man did you really honestly think i meant 3000 fps impact velocity!!

 

[FURMAN]

C'mon man did you really honestly think i meant 3000 fps impact velocity!!

No. I am done arguing with you.

Fact=muzzle velocity means nothing, Impact velocity means everything. I can't take anymore of this thread. Have a great day. To those of you still hunting good luck.

 

[Varmint Hunter]

Like most of you I have tried most of the readily available bullets. Day in & day out I found it hard to better the good ol' Accubond and have taken most of my game from southern whitetails to northern moose with them. I have never experienced an incident of poor terminal performance with any Accubond bullet.

Lately, I've been shooting a fair amount of Hammer bullets. While I have only taken a few animals with them they sure seem to reliably do what Hammer claims. My last kill was a Maine bull moose. The 402gr Hammer bullet is probably still going but the moose is already in the freezer. A Berger may have worked fine (using a different cartridge) but I had a lot more faith in a heavy mono for that particular hunt.

 

[cajun]

The one potential issue I see with the bergers is they are an open tipped bullet. You hear all the time make sure the tips are open. If not they just pencil through because the open tip is needed for expansion. They also penetrate several inches before opening up. Is it possible for the tip to get plugged with hide bone or tissue before it has a chance to expand? Probably. Can the tips get crap in them in the field or deformed by a feed ramp, maybe. A tipped bullet like the eldm eliminates those issues. Just a thought on the varying reports you see with bergers.

 

[Ward Thurman]

First kill at what I would consider long range - 350 yards. My 21 year old son with his mule deer. 6.5x284 Savage. 143 grain Hornaday something-or-others. I wished I could have been there. I was 8000 miles away.

 

[Pdvdh]

I like tipped bullets. But have had them fail to expand also... a 150gr Nosler Ballistic Tip at only12 yds off the muzzle at high impact velocity.
Nevertheless, I'll shoot a tipped bullet if that option is available, all other aspects of the comparable bullets being similar in construction.

 

[Troutslayer2]

Anybody have experience with this bullet and high shoulder shot on elk? Is it a good choice for that?

 

[Eric Musgrove]

I just want to say I have a few factory boxes of the 215 Berger Hybrid that I bought for my 300 win mag to see if it liked them, it loves them. I looked all over this box and no where does it say not suited for hunting or anything even close to that. Would the term hybrid not mean it is suited for both? I have not got to test them on game yet.