Does energy = lethality?

[RockyMtnMT]

Just get an 06. more energy and not much more recoil. The 308 with some bullets will actually go subsonic at 900 yds (I long range target shoot), and won't even hit the target frame. 06 might be "boring" because it does so much so well. But hunting not about shooting something with an iffy round, it's about taking the game right. As the gunsmith said, 500-600 yards IS long range. If you can't get close enough to shoot, then don't. LR and hunting don't belong in the same sentence.

They do go in the same sentence here. That is what this site is about. The definition of long range varies from one Hunter to the next or the equipment that they use.

 

[VLD Pilot]

Boys boys boys. Can't we all just agree that the 300 is the minimum for elk and all get along.

Nope. We CAN all get along tho !!!

 

[Bigfishonafly]

Nope. We CAN all get along tho !!!

Lol maybe not

 

[Deviant]

I hear people say that all the time, I have never understood it - any advantage you think your big magnum has is all psychological when it comes to elk. You realize a gutshot elk with a 300 or 338 mag is no different than a gutshot elk with a 6.5 right? Most people would be better off bringing their whitetail "tinker toy" guns elk hunting. This is a huge problem on this forum - out of state hunters who claim you have to have a big magnum to kill elk. Its just BS bro. I have some big magnums too - 300 rum, 300 weatherby, 325 wsm etc. they don't kill them any deader than my 260 or 25-06. Its just a reality.

You are doing the OP a huge diservice trying to make him think he needs a big magnum, especially where it sounds like he would be uncomfortable with the recoil.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree then. I don't post on this site to start arguments just give my opinion. A 6.5 PRC does not have Much for recoil and with the 147 grain bullets it would be a pretty solid choice in my opinion. That's all I'm getting at but you can shoot whatever game with whatever rifle you choose.

 

[FIGJAM]

Just get an 06. more energy and not much more recoil. The 308 with some bullets will actually go subsonic at 900 yds (I long range target shoot), and won't even hit the target frame. 06 might be "boring" because it does so much so well. But hunting not about shooting something with an iffy round, it's about taking the game right. As the gunsmith said, 500-600 yards IS long range. If you can't get close enough to shoot, then don't. LR and hunting don't belong in the same sentence.

Apparently those 30-06's are only good to 300 yards on elk...

 

[Jack R Tishue Jr]

Not meaning to be disrespectful, but too many folks too want it all. 20" barrel, rifle weight of 6 lbs, etc. Like I said, we have shot LR competition. A 7 mag, for instance would have at least a 24" barrel and maybe closer to 30 to keep the speed up. Friend who shot the Wimbledon used a 300WM, with a 30" barrel, to keep the speed up. My 308 has a 26" barrel and considered IFFY about keeping rounds super sonic (above 1150 fps) at that range. Also, a shooter at those ranges needs to be super good at judging wind, as even heavy bullets can be blown off enough to miss, or be out in the wounding area. Friend of mine, a National Champion LR shooter said they'd had bullets blown off so far, they had to aim on the target next to theirs, to hit theirs. That being a distance of 8 feet. Too many variables to take into account to just lob away at animals at long range. I'd be limiting my LR shots to 600 yds, because know I can hit the kill zone all the time there. Elmer's minimum elk round would have been a 338, as sufficient bullet to kill right.

 

[FIGJAM]

Thanks for the support. I never understood the angstist between preferences in calibers, loads, etc. I see it as we're all brothers enjoying a common sport. I am by no means a military sniper, but I'll sit side by side with anyone at the range or in the field with my 300WM. I'll out shoot 8 of 10 every day, regardless of their rifle selection or DTT out to 900 yrs. When it's close or I come up on the short end of the match, I love to learn. I'm confident with my abilities and MY preferred rifle selection. Isn't that what it is all about. Choose and embrace what you shoot.

Honestly you 300wm guys are as bad as the creedmoor dudes. Lol

 

[Deviant]

Lots of people don't like to hunt with plugs or muffs - see my previous post. If you are hunting solo, I always use plugs. If I am hunting with others, I never do...

They make electronic earplugs and earmuffs for a reason.

 

[VLD Pilot]

Back when Elmer was lobbing bullets at animals, he only had a few choices per caliber. Today, many excellent bullets are made for 6, 6.5 and 7mm (NON magnum) cartridges that get the job done as well as magnums did many years ago. For some reason people do not take that into account. Lobbing bullets may be what you would be doing shooting at animals beyond the "300 yard comfort zone" but there are many LR hunters that very effectively and efficiently, kill at 3 times that range responsibly when conditions allow it. Nothing to prove, nothing to brag about, just another successful day in the field. Here again, the word OPINION comes in to play. Don't shoot game at LR if you can't make the shot. If you can, go for it. Just that simple. I have buddys that hate the fact that hunters use match bullets to kill animals. I always tell them, it's a choice. They kill just as good as a labeled hunting bullet. They are just much more accurate at long range and have more of a ballistic edge in performance ( energy/velocity).

 

[gator378]

Check out "the real gunsmith" on you tube..... Specifically his video on poor long range cartridges. I know ever one won't agree with this guy but I find him to be very knowledgeable and truly enjoy the content he puts out

I like him to.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

To me "hunting" means getting close enough I have to back up to raise the rifle to shoot. But have no problem with folks shooting further, but 800 yards and such, the only animals that should be shot at are people, during a war. When Jack O'Connor and Warren Page and Elmer were hunting, they'd never taken a shot at over 600 and only Elmer would then, because he was a long range competitor and knew he could hit something that far away. Page killed 400+ head or game, used a 7mm Mashburn Magnum and one load, 175gr RN bullets. He was a BR shooter and knew how to shoot also. I really believe that most folks touting shooting at something at 800 yds fi: wouldn't once they realize how far that is. A 40" wide bullseye at a 1000 yds looks like a rat turd, and elk looks like a mouse. I'm into hunting, not trying to prove something by shooting at those distances.

https://www.longrangehunting.com/help/rules/

Read these.

 

[Moose4Me]

They make electronic earplugs and earmuffs for a reason.

Amen

 

[Jack R Tishue Jr]

Back when Elmer was lobbing bullets at animals, he only had a few choices per caliber. Today, many excellent bullets are made for 6, 6.5 and 7mm (NON magnum) cartridges that get the job done as well as magnums did many years ago. For some reason people do not take that into account. Lobbing bullets may be what you would be doing shooting at animals beyond the "300 yard comfort zone" but there are many LR hunters that very effectively and efficiently, kill at 3 times that range responsibly when conditions allow it. Nothing to prove, nothing to brag about, just another successful day in the field. Here again, the word OPINION comes in to play. Don't shoot game at LR if you can't make the shot. If you can, go for it. Just that simple. I have buddys that hate the fact that hunters use match bullets to kill animals. I always tell them, it's a choice. They kill just as good as a labeled hunting bullet. They are just much more accurate at long range and have more of a ballistic edge in performance ( energy/velocity).

Actually, you're right on the better bullets today. But that not the only thing. Was a matter of hitting the game, and having enough energy left to do the job. A 6.5 CM or 260 Remington, should be considered deer rounds, no more. That a 6.5 bullet might kill and elk, if hit right, not the point, the point is, is it enough gun and bullet to do it quickly and cleanly. Then too, how good is the shooter, do they "really" understand the shooting at a range like 800 yards. The better bullets today doesn't mean they are instant killers, just means they hold up better (I'm a Barnes Ttsx fan), and penetrate. Back in the 70s we had the Partitions which I used and were good. I've been hunting since 1955 and loading since 1959, so been in it awhile. One thing, I mentioned in my last post, was that too many folks don't seem to understand barrel length, etc, in respect to keeping a round super sonic at those ranges. A 16" barreled 308 is only a 600 yd round, if that. It will go subsonic and not be stable. So would need a 26" barrel, to keep it supersonic at a 1000 yds. I am sure there are SOME people who can hit an elk, hopefully in the boiler room, at 800 or further yards, and if they can, at least they'll kill it. But need to also use something with enough oomph to do it right. I have a 340 wby and if shooting that far would use it, as feel my 06 or something would be marginal. Not trying to flame people. If shooting at game at that range your thing, and you're competent (should come to Camp Perry and compete, as we can use more shooters), fine. We see too much stuff on here about shooting rounds that are too iffy on anything bigger than deer, at Elk. Elk known for being tough, and hit with a small caliber that has hardly any thing left, concerns me as game could be wounded and lost without the shooter realizing it'd been hit. Just want folks to use something sufficient for the distance and animal. How much shooting in one year do you do, to "practice" for those distances? My LR target shooting friend shoots at least a 1000 rounds a year, usually more, to keep in tune. Would seem to me a few 100 rounds a year would be needed to keep in tune. So, I'm not trying to flame folks, just need to get some common sense into it.

 

[Jack R Tishue Jr]

Actually, you're right on the better bullets today. But that not the only thing. Was a matter of hitting the game, and having enough energy left to do the job. A 6.5 CM or 260 Remington, should be considered deer rounds, no more. That a 6.5 bullet might kill and elk, if hit right, not the point, the point is, is it enough gun and bullet to do it quickly and cleanly. Then too, how good is the shooter, do they "really" understand the shooting at a range like 800 yards. The better bullets today doesn't mean they are instant killers, just means they hold up better (I'm a Barnes Ttsx fan), and penetrate. Back in the 70s we had the Partitions which I used and were good. I've been hunting since 1955 and loading since 1959, so been in it awhile. One thing, I mentioned in my last post, was that too many folks don't seem to understand barrel length, etc, in respect to keeping a round super sonic at those ranges. A 16" barreled 308 is only a 600 yd round, if that. It will go subsonic and not be stable. So would need a 26" barrel, to keep it supersonic at a 1000 yds. I am sure there are SOME people who can hit an elk, hopefully in the boiler room, at 800 or further yards, and if they can, at least they'll kill it. But need to also use something with enough oomph to do it right. I have a 340 wby and if shooting that far would use it, as feel my 06 or something would be marginal. Not trying to flame people. If shooting at game at that range your thing, and you're competent (should come to Camp Perry and compete, as we can use more shooters), fine. We see too much stuff on here about shooting rounds that are too iffy on anything bigger than deer, at Elk. Elk known for being tough, and hit with a small caliber that has hardly any thing left, concerns me as game could be wounded and lost without the shooter realizing it'd been hit. Just want folks to use something sufficient for the distance and animal. How much shooting in one year do you do, to "practice" for those distances? My LR target shooting friend shoots at least a 1000 rounds a year, usually more, to keep in tune. Would seem to me a few 100 rounds a year would be needed to keep in tune. So, I'm not trying to flame folks, just need to get some common sense into it.

Oh, noticed Elmer "lobbing bullets" at stuff. He was a master level shooter, came in 2nd in the 600 yds matches at Camp Perry in 1925 and such, and later. He knew what he was doing, so not lobbing rounds at anything. Nor was O'Connor or Page. These guys knew what they were doing shooting wise. In the shooting at Camp Perry Elmer would have been shooting a Model 1903 Springfield and IRON sights. Today the matches at Perry still require iron sights for the most part.