Does energy = lethality?

[HARPERC]

Things change, Page, O'Connor, and Keith never saw a laser range finder, never had access to the optics, or any of the other equipment available today.

And yes I would like a 6lb rifle, firing laser beams with no recoil. Someplace in the $500 dollar range.

I'm not sure why anybody would come to a long range hunting site, thinking they're going to change hearts and minds, or roll the clock back to the 1950's. Ain't gonna happen.

 

[Moose4Me]

https://www.longrangehunting.com/help/rules/

Read these.

When I'm that close I like my bow. Large brown bear at 38 yrs in Canadian Rockies! One clean shot bear fell after stumbling 25 yds. Long range hunting from mountain side to mountain side requires a whole different set of skills to take an animal with one clean shot, even with technology. We still have to aim and pull the trigger.

 

[VLD Pilot]

I'm no Tony Boyer. I do not compete. I did shoot 1000 competition some years back but since, just LR hunting and shooting steel. Ground hogs are about the only critters I kill beyond 1000 yards. Barrel length means nothing IF you know what your velocity is from whatever barely your toting. Sure a 30" barrel gets you free velocity beyond 26". It's a better way to get it than pushing pressure but either way, knowing where your shot will hit at those longest ranges takes hours of range time in alot of conditions. Match shooters get those kind of conditions very often. When I shot 1000 yds, many days we'd encounter 20-30 mph winds and not sustained. Here in the east, they are gusting which can be a match shooters nemesis. Western state winds are pretty steady and predictable. Guess my point was, shot placement Trump's bullet choice. A 6.5/140 grain bullet collides with an elks vital zone at 750 yards will be just as dead, just as fast as one hit with a 180 accubond from a 300 Weatherby mag. That's just plain fact. The guys pulling the trigger at all those football field distances have done the homework and range work behind those rifles to make that happen. I guess there are a few hail Mary hunters but on these forums, not so much. There's always a couple knuckle heads in every group of people.

 

[VLD Pilot]

Good point. There are so many more modern ballistic advantages in this long range game than half a century ago besides the huge quality improvement in bullet design and construction. The long range hunting, match bullets for hunting subject is so controversial that it always creates division.

 

[Moose4Me]

I was originally thinking .308 since the ammo is cheap and this will be my first foray into long range. Then I started looking at 6.5 Creedmoor due to less deflection from wind and the lower recoil.

If 6.5 Creedmoor or .308 aren't sufficient for long range elk, then I just won't hunt elk at long ranges. I really just wanted a good entry cartridge to learn with.

The lower recoil would mainly be nice so that my kids could shoot it when they are a little older.

I guess I have more research to do

You're on the right track. Accurate 800 yd shots in the field take a lot of practice irregardless of the caliber you choose. I like your comment about shooting with your kids as they get older. I have had a Browning A-Bolt 30-06 in my safe for that purpose. I have liked the versatility of the numerous factory loads (I'm a Hornady guy). Here come the comments. Low recoil, reliable weapon/caliber makes for decades of fun shooting. At 14 my daughter could hit the bottom of a shot glass from 200 yds with the A-Bolt.

 

[Jack R Tishue Jr]

The point is with barrel length is, a 16" barreled 308 will run out of steam and not even probably reach a 1000 yds. I have seen the 22" barreled M14s, loose enough velocity at 900 to be below sonic at a 1000 and a 308, when it goes subsonic normally so inaccurate it won't hit the target frame , 6ft square, at a 1000 yds. A 16" barreled 308 a toy. O'Connor and all those folks did have scopes. they were around for a long time. But they just didn't believe in shooting that far. O'Connor was famous for saying, all you need is 4x, because anything too far away to shoot at with a 4x too far away to shoot at period. I don't know if I totally agree with that, but there it is. Since where I hunt, E. Coast, a 100 yds shots are long, I generally don't need that much scope. The scopes I like best are my B&L 2 1/2 -8 which have no adjustments in the scope. adjustments in the bases. Leave them on 2 1/2 most of the time. But they not as good brightness wise as todays stuff, for sure. Range finders, at least todays kind, not invented yet and I have one. The trajectory on a bullet at a 1000 yds, so steep, doesn't take much to miss. 25 yds one way or the other can result in a miss. When officiating at a 1000 yds, (we're down in the pits below the targets), bullets hitting the bull at 1000 yds would be hitting the ground at 1100 yds. Target is 10 feet above the ground, so bullet dropping 10 feet in a 100 yds. at that range. I have hunted out west, 1st deer shot in Montana in 1959. Have shot mule deer, goats, and Pdogs out there, so familiar with the area.

 

[Jack R Tishue Jr]

Good point. There are so many more modern ballistic advantages in this long range game than half a century ago besides the huge quality improvement in bullet design and construction. The long range hunting, match bullets for hunting subject is so controversial that it always creates division.

I think at a long range not going to matter, as no bullet going to really open up right at these extreme ranges, so whether military or hunting, probably of no difference.

 

[Moose4Me]

Hey everybody,

I've recently decided to finally take the plunge into long range shooting / hunting. After probably 10+ years of wanting to, I finally am in a position in my life where I am able to. I've done lots of reading, and watched many videos, and I am thinking my first rifle should be the Savage 12FV (I want to start with low cost, but have the ability to upgrade later). My only question, which is one I have seen asked many times, is 6.5 Creedmoor or .308 Win?

Since this comparison has been discussed ad nauseam, I am not asking for a comparison between the 2. I understand the pros and cons of each. However, I ran into a question that I am unable to answer myself so I am hoping the great users of this forum might be able to provide some insight.

I ran a comparison of what I think would be good hand-loaded bullets for each caliber over on shooterscalculator.com. The comparison can be found at http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=9aa7d293 .

My proposed use for the rifle would be elk hunting (if I am offered this new job I have interviewed for), or whitetail hunting (if I don't get an offer). I would probably do some coyote / wild pig hunting as well. Ideally, once I am capable, I would like this rifle to be used out to 800 yards.

When looking at the data in the previous link, it shows that at 800 yards the 6.5 Creedmoor has 972 ft. lbf. of energy left. The .308 Win on the other hand has 942 ft. lbf. Since these numbers are comparable, should I assume that both bullets at this range have the same stopping force? Or is there something else that I am missing? (Note that both bullets used in the comparison are Hornady ELD-X).

Thanks!

Using the BC enter in what you would anticipate would be your environmental factors for your hunt. You might be surprised how much altitude, barometric pressure, & temperature affect velocity and energy. Check it out.

 

[Moose4Me]

I think at a long range not going to matter, as no bullet going to really open up right at these extreme ranges, so whether military or hunting, probably of no difference.

Well placed shot is critical. Shouldn't rely on terminal velocity affect on the bullet.

 

[HARPERC]

To quote one of the hero's of long ago of long ago mentioned "Hell I was there". We've gone past O'Connor's K4 quite awhile back. In terms of optical quality, precision adjustments that yester years scopes don't match. Chronographs capable of identifying spreads in ammo before even taking the field. Range finders, ballistic calculators, Kestrels for obtaining environmental data. Again that could have been good advice at the time, it may work for you, but it's not really what this site is about.

 

[bigngreen]

This has to be a joke, I shoot 215 Bergers from my 26 inch barrel 308 at 2620 fps and have zero, and I mean zero issues with the bullets making to a mile!
I'm hitting 800 yards at 1848 fps and 1631 ft lbs of energy, if 215 Berger out of a 300 win will taco a bull at those numbers so will a 308. I have a load at a low node at 2460 fps and it's a sweet spot as well.

 

[Moose4Me]

To quote one of the hero's of long ago of long ago mentioned "Hell I was there". We've gone past O'Connor's K4 quite awhile back. In terms of optical quality, precision adjustments that yester years scopes don't match. Chronographs capable of identifying spreads in ammo before even taking the field. Range finders, ballistic calculators, Kestrels for obtaining environmental data. Again that could have been good advice at the time, it may work for you, but it's not really what this site is about.

Well slap my wrist. Didn't realize Kestrel was a four letter word on this site. It's kind of funny Les and his son at LRH introduced me to many of these new technologies. Hmm. This is a LRH forum, right? I'm more confused by the comment. I would think any available advancements in technology are fair game. Censorship - Boo. Take from any discussion what you will. Any post, while some may contain empirical data are almost entirely opinion. Let's learn to embrace each others opinions no matter how we may perceive them. We all may learn something.

 

[Jack R Tishue Jr]

To quote one of the hero's of long ago of long ago mentioned "Hell I was there". We've gone past O'Connor's K4 quite awhile back. In terms of optical quality, precision adjustments that yester years scopes don't match. Chronographs capable of identifying spreads in ammo before even taking the field. Range finders, ballistic calculators, Kestrels for obtaining environmental data. Again that could have been good advice at the time, it may work for you, but it's not really what this site is about.

I acknowledg these things, been using them for more years than some of the posters on here been alive. But that doesn't make a good shot out of anyone. Nor does it make an Elk cartridge out of a groundhog cartridge. I just don't believe MOST , say 99.4% of shooters out there could hit anything at 800 yds. let alone the kill area on an Elk. To those who can, great. I'm just concerned that a lot of people going out there, shooting beyond their capabilities, and even then, not using a round that will do the trick, say like a 340 Wby or something. An 06 not really a long range round, so how's a 6.5C or 260 Rem. one. Just concerned about people using a capable round. From what I'm reading, lots of folks don't really know what their round will do at these ranges. How may Elk you killed at extended ranges? Like I said, less about shooting at that range than being able to do so competently, and "using enough gun".

 

[VLD Pilot]

The point is with barrel length is, a 16" barreled 308 will run out of steam and not even probably reach a 1000 yds. I have seen the 22" barreled M14s, loose enough velocity at 900 to be below sonic at a 1000 and a 308, when it goes subsonic normally so inaccurate it won't hit the target frame , 6ft square, at a 1000 yds. A 16" barreled 308 a toy. O'Connor and all those folks did have scopes. they were around for a long time. But they just didn't believe in shooting that far. O'Connor was famous for saying, all you need is 4x, because anything too far away to shoot at with a 4x too far away to shoot at period. I don't know if I totally agree with that, but there it is. Since where I hunt, E. Coast, a 100 yds shots are long, I generally don't need that much scope. The scopes I like best are my B&L 2 1/2 -8 which have no adjustments in the scope. adjustments in the bases. Leave them on 2 1/2 most of the time. But they not as good brightness wise as todays stuff, for sure. Range finders, at least todays kind, not invented yet and I have one. The trajectory on a bullet at a 1000 yds, so steep, doesn't take much to miss. 25 yds one way or the other can result in a miss. When officiating at a 1000 yds, (we're down in the pits below the targets), bullets hitting the bull at 1000 yds would be hitting the ground at 1100 yds. Target is 10 feet above the ground, so bullet dropping 10 feet in a 100 yds. at that range. I have hunted out west, 1st deer shot in Montana in 1959. Have shot mule deer, goats, and Pdogs out there, so familiar with the area.

I've never hunted elk with a 308. Would I ? Yes if it was the only choice I had. I have better choices. A couple of my 308 bolt guns tote 26" barrels. One shoots 168 TMks very well at 2880 fps. I would not feel handicapped at all with that combination. At 800 yards it still carries over 1400 ft lbs and close to 2000 fps. It's an 8000 ft elevation figure but realistic if hunting elk. Chop 10" off that barrel and drop 300 lbs energy and 200+ fps. That would drop the range to around 550 yards if maintaining the 2000 fps impact velocity. I use 2000 fps because bullets still perform well at the velocity on game. I like the 215 Berger's better for the numbers but it's not what I shoot.