Bullet Expansion - Hammer Hunter vs HHT

[Petey308]

Gday Aron

Ok here's my poor social skills showing
What does that emoji actually mean
Example how bad I am , once I never under stood lol once & my boys use to have great fun pulling the out of me about it which I'm fine with today & we joke about it

so what does the handshake emoji actually mean is it hello or goodbye I guess I'm asking or is it something else your meaning by putting it up

While I was milking I was ticking on a few things & how to approach in a different way

look @ these bullets same company
View attachment 513692
These 2 on sectioning ( sectioning is a great reference tool but that's it & useless unless you do the full equation) them which once they are measured & overlapped on a computer ( not my work as I'm to dumb on computers ) you get the same pill exactly & this was also confirmed by Winchester Australia on same just so called different packaging


Well no they are not as has been proven on game time & time again & when you delve deeper by testing the makeup with various systems you see why this occurs
All else is exactly the same yet the black box ones we moved to other brands as they just wouldn't kill as good as the ones in the orange box
Today neither are no longer made

So now look @ Barnes same occurred
Nosler portition another & the list goes on
Yes I've sectioned plenty of pills ( not as many as you I'd say ) but I also learnt what needed to be understood is the way ea of those pills behave to understand the big picture yes I've put my foot in my mouth plenty of times as I was once a lot along the same line as your thoughts that are being relayed again & it's why I keep bringing it up on how you relate that hammers have no broaching points to help initiate the shedding as they don't require or need
( Expansion on a shedding mono only occurs in the transition zone )
This you are not understanding the how & why , so you need to delve a lot deeper to understand & bluntly if Steve broaches these pills you watch preformance drop off & that is factual also but on some of his lines it may help but not on the majority especially guys here ( specialist pills I'm talking but I'll not go into those details )


Clear you head Aron & I mean that with respect
Cheers

Sent you a PM, as I do not care to continue this derailment here.

 

[ButterBean]

Sent you a PM, as I do not care to continue this derailment here.

That's hilarious, SMH

 

[ButterBean]

I'm just adding to the discussion.

I personally try to learn all there is to learn about a particular bullet or bullet design and figure out its limits and when it does best and when it doesn't. Then I document that and share with people those findings. Hammers would be no different. Sometimes emotions cloud our judgement and critiques are seen as attacks. I wish it wasn't that way.

So when someone else is teaching the class you don't want anyone else to know about it ? Seriously, Fordy is going in to great detail and showing Hammers that failed and you send a PM because you think it's a derailment, how are we to learn from that?

 

[Dmagna]

I just like it when people go nuts for a bullet. Some of these people act like someone offended your grandma and you gotta come to the rescue. If people are showing evidence and and they don't want to believe it then kinda sounds like a bullet cult.

 

[ButterBean]

I just like it when people go nuts for a bullet. Some of these people act like someone offended your grandma and you gotta come to the rescue. If people are showing evidence and and they don't want to believe it then kinda sounds like a bullet cult.

I'm not defending anyone, and there is no cult, and yes that bullet failed, all bullets are gonna fail, I'm just glad he got the critter

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I still have not taken the time to read all of this. Did I see in one of the responses that the impact hole was 1.5" long and the bullet only penetrated 6"? If this is the case then that eliminates accidental meplat damage, from rough handling, as a potential cause of the poor expansion. An oblong entrance hole indicates a bullet that was in the process of tumbling prior to impact. Also a penetration of only 6" from a bullet that is fully intact indicates a sideways impact. So, that leaves us with two potential causes for the bullet that did not expand. 1. Ballistic stability so low that the bullet was cartwheeling through the air.
2. Bullet strike on something prior to impacting the target.
Looking at the bullet I lean towards hitting something before the animal. The jagged edge of half of the meplat indicates a hard surface without fluid. If it were a bone impact with a stable impact that failed to open, you would expect to see meplat that was closed. Also if the bullet began to tumble after impacting the animal it would likely be bent like a banana and penetrated more than 6".

There is not a bullet design, tip, or manufacturing process that will aid terminal performance of a bullet tumbling prior to impact.

There is no such thing as a bullet that doesn't deflect on brush impacts. If we could overcome brush impacts then wind deflection would be a thing if the past. Shooting through brush is simply playing the odds. As a golfer we always say trees are 70% air, so your odds of getting through the tree, without impact, are better than 50/50. That usually doesn't work out well. Sometimes it does though. Same goes for bullets and brush. Mostly air with a high probability of deflection. I too have played the odds shooting through brush. It has worked out more often than not, which has nothing to do with bullet construction.

 

[David_h]

OP Here. So it appears that my bullet tumbled; either in flight, or upon hitting a bush, or upon hitting the Elk hide. I am now wondering if the bullet was unstable in the air.

I got to thinking about my one long range target session with this bullet prior to my hunt. My three shots at 600 yard paper were right on the money. My three shots at 850 were low and I assumed I hit dirt because I had elongated ragged holes in the paper. I had discounted tumbled bullet at 850 yards because the recommended minimum twist for 199 grain hammer Hunter is 9.25" and my rifle has 8" twist.

I just confirmed with a tight fitting Jag that my twist is 8". Take a look at the picture of the 850 yard target and let me know if you think the oblong holes are tumbling bullets or dirt kicked up from low shots. Target session was at elevation 210' and temp was 85 degrees, muzzle velocity 3080 fps. My 520 yard elk shot was at 4600' elevation, temp 50 degrees. I am planning to go to the long range again this week and will try to test out stability of the 199gr HH bullet in my 8 twist barrel. Disclaimer: I cannot rule out that this bullet hit vegetation at either the 850yd paper target or the 520yd elk target however I plan to scrutinize this at the range next week.

I hope that everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving holiday.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

OP Here. So it appears that my bullet tumbled; either in flight, or upon hitting a bush, or upon hitting the Elk hide. I am now wondering if the bullet was unstable in the air.

I got to thinking about my one long range target session with this bullet prior to my hunt. My three shots at 600 yard paper were right on the money. My three shots at 850 were low and I assumed I hit dirt because I had elongated ragged holes in the paper. I had discounted tumbled bullet at 850 yards because the recommended minimum twist for 199 grain hammer Hunter is 9.25" and my rifle has 8" twist.

I just confirmed with a tight fitting Jag that my twist is 8". Take a look at the picture of the 850 yard target and let me know if you think the oblong holes are tumbling bullets or dirt kicked up from low shots. Target session was at elevation 210' and temp was 85 degrees, muzzle velocity 3080 fps. My 520 yard elk shot was at 4600' elevation, temp 50 degrees. I am planning to go to the long range again this week and will try to test out stability of the 199gr HH bullet in my 8 twist barrel. Disclaimer: I cannot rule out that this bullet hit vegetation at either the 850yd paper target or the 520yd elk target however I plan to scrutinize this at the range next week.

I hope that everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving holiday.

It was probably stated before but what barrel are you running?

 

[David_h]

It was probably stated before but what barrel are you running?

Hi Steve, Gun is factory Browning X-bolt Pro. 26" sporter barrel, muzzle hawg brake, 8 twist.

 

[shinbone]

JMHO, but the one hole in the 7 ring and directly below the target's bullseye look like a tumbling bullet to me. A closer photo would be helpful.

It is interesting to note that bullets usually become more stable as they travel down range, not less stable.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Hi Steve, Gun is factory Browning X-bolt Pro. 26" sporter barrel, muzzle hawg brake, 8 twist.

I believe seeing your target there is a stability issue. I had a discussion with a smith the other day, that I have much respect for and he was discussing barrel twist that slows towards the end of the barrel. Makes me wonder if this could be happening here?

 

[RockyMtnMT]

JMHO, but the one hole in the 7 ring and directly below the target's bullseye look like a tumbling bullet to me. A closer photo would be helpful.

It is interesting to note that bullets usually become more stable as they travel down range, not less stable.

Technically bullets become more stable as the down range velocity decreases. Although marginally stable bullets seem to begin greater wobble and actual tumbling farther down range.

 

[Varmint Hunter]

Bullets hitting the ground at 850yds and then entering the target sideways with pretty good accuracy (considering) seems highly unlikely to me. But ... stranger things have happened, I guess.

 

[David_h]

OP Here.. I went to the long range yesterday to shoot the same load at paper targets to see if I could replicate instability or tumbling. Three at 850 yards and two at 750 yards. Less than 1 MOA at both distances. All were round holes. I did shoot more at the steel silhouettes for fun. No evidence of tumbling in flight all the paper holes are perfect with the range elevation of 200 feet and a temperature of 50 degrees. My best guess is that my hunting shot hit a bush or grass prior to impact resulting in upset bullet. I'm still planning on trying the 182 HHT.