Bullet Expansion - Hammer Hunter vs HHT

[ButterBean]

Could be! What's your explanation?

Trouble being with such post evaluations (here) is they turn adversarial. My question becomes the bullet neither expanded, nor did it penetrate well. Generally poor expansion is associated with "penciling" whether its a Berger, Hornady, Sierra, Match bullet etc. One would expect a long narrow wound channel.

Entrance wound stated as about 1.5", nearly bullet length?

Congratulations to OP on elk, and thanks for posting this.

X-2

 

[snox801]

The reason I say this as a young guy that saw me using hammers in Co ordered some and had the exact same issues. The bullet was stable enough for paper but bullet came out exactly like yours. One like a banana.
Went from I believe the 181 hammer to the 180 or 178 whatever the remake of the 181 was. And he's had normal results.
The biggest giveaway was it obviously didn't shed the front tip this if stable and heading straight it should have went right on through like Bergers do when they don't open.

 

[Petey308]

I'm not sure why you would say that? It could be twist. I can say I shoot more game each year than most. Over 100 game animals a year. I have never had this happen with a hammer or cutting edge bullet. I've had failures of Barnes and other brands but even if your tip theory was right with no expansion how did it not penetrate farther. I've seen one similar in CO on an elk. He found his bullet was stable enough to keep it straight on paper but tumbled as soon as it hit flesh. Dropped to the heavy hammer about the same weight and the issue went away.

Tumbling on impact is due to necking over and not expanding. Doesn't happen on paper.

In this case, if it didn't expand, and was a steep angle, it can experience enough resistance to not penetrate deep, especially if it turns perpendicular to its path.

Hammers are indeed made from a very soft copper alloy and it doesn't take much to deform the small open tip.

The exact reason it didn't expand and separate the petals isn't fully known right now, but we can speculate based on the things we do know.

 

[ButterBean]

Will add that the entrance hole was about 1.5" diameter.

Did you recover the 2nd bullet?

 

[Petey308]

Think it's not keyhole enough twist to stabilize flight but on game not enough. It's been covered before with these and other bullets.

Spinning the crap out of a bullet can help, by adding a lot of centrifugal force. That'll help the petals already want to spread apart.

The issue I've seen with bullets with small open tips and soft material is that the tip can be easily deformed and when that happens it tends to compromise the ability for it to expand as designed. Adding centrifugal force can help like I said, but a larger opening, broaching, larger cavity, a tip (and with a good interface that helps them work together), etc all help too.

It's very possible adding RPMs could have helped here. It's also possible it wouldn't have mattered.

I'm just adding to the discussion.

 

[snox801]

Tumbling on impact is due to necking over and not expanding. Doesn't happen on paper.

In this case, if it didn't expand, and was a steep angle, it can experience enough resistance to not penetrate deep, especially if it turns perpendicular to its path.

Hammers are indeed made from a very soft copper alloy and it doesn't take much to deform the small open tip.

The exact reason it didn't expand and separate the petals isn't fully known right now, but we can speculate based on the things we do know.

This is correct but the tip being bent wouldn't necessarily cause it to tumble. Berger have that a lot and they zip right through. I suppose if the tip was damaged badly while feeding fast its is possible. That is one bonus to the hht. Especially in ar-15's

 

[snox801]

Spinning the crap out of a bullet can help, by adding a lot of centrifugal force. That'll help the petals already want to spread apart.

The issue I've seen with bullets with small open tips and soft material is that the tip can be easily deformed and when thet happens it tends to compromise the ability for it to expand as designed. Adding centrifugal force can help like I said, but a larger opening, broaching, larger cavity, a tip and with a good interface that helps them work together, etc all help too.

It's very possible adding RPMs could have helped here. It's also possible it wouldn't have mattered.

I'm just adding to the discussion.

You are correct and I believe the hht would solve the problem and allow for lower open velocity.
I'm looking at the 203 but I hate to lose the vapor trial.

 

[Petey308]

This is correct but the tip being bent wouldn't necessarily cause it to tumble. Berger have that a lot and they zip right through. I suppose if the tip was damaged badly while feeding fast its is possible. That is one bonus to the hht. Especially in ar-15's

Right. It doesn't automatically mean it'll tumble. I'm not sure we even know if this one did tumble for sure. We just know it barely opened up, didn't penetrate far, and had an entry hole around 1.5"

And we know how the 199gr HH is constructed.

 

[adam32+P]

Could be! What's your explanation?

Trouble being with such post evaluations (here) is they turn adversarial. My question becomes the bullet neither expanded, nor did it penetrate well. Generally poor expansion is associated with "penciling" whether its a Berger, Hornady, Sierra, Match bullet etc. One would expect a long narrow wound channel.

Entrance wound stated as about 1.5", nearly bullet length?

Congratulations to OP on elk, and thanks for posting this.

I don't have an explanation other than, stuff happens.

It doesn't matter who makes the bullet, sometimes they just don't work as they should. It doesn't make Hammers "bad", it just means they are like everything else.

Like I said, this is the third picture in as many weeks I have seen exactly like that. As more people start using them the more you will see these anomalies, as long as they don't get censored of course.

I'm still shooting them in a few rifles. Hasn't changed my mind yet, at least for deer.

 

[Petey308]

I don't have an explanation other than, stuff happens.

It doesn't matter who makes the bullet, sometimes they just don't work as they should. It doesn't make Hammers "bad", it just means they are like everything else.

Like I said, this is the third picture in as many weeks I have seen exactly like that. As more people start using them the more you will see these anomalies, as long as they don't get censored of course.

I'm still shooting them in a few rifles. Hasn't changed my mind yet, at least for deer.

Agreed. Crap happens. Anomalies happen. As long as we can admit it and learn what there is to learn from it, make changes as necessary, and move on with life.

Nothing good comes from acting like this stuff doesn't happen and it could only be something other than the bullet. Obviously there are plenty of good results out there too.

I personally try to learn all there is to learn about a particular bullet or bullet design and figure out its limits and when it does best and when it doesn't. Then I document that and share with people those findings. Hammers would be no different. Sometimes emotions cloud our judgement and critiques are seen as attacks. I wish it wasn't that way.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Curious if I can expect better expansion from Hammer HHT vs my current 199 gr Hammer Hunter? I'm a little surprised at the minimal expansion in my Hammer Hunter (pic below).

Bullet recovered from my Elk. The Quick story: spotted lone 6x6 at 15 minutes after sunset. Took shot at 520 yards. Hit high spine, bull arched up and was still on feet quartered away. Took a second shot (this bullet) hit left rear quarter. Bullet did not seem to penetrate far nor did it expand. I did notice that hollow point was filled with flesh. Hoping the HHT might be better.
View attachment 512387

Just saw this. I very much expect more than that. I have not read any of the thread so forgive me if this has been talked about. My first thought is stability. This looks to be a bullet that may have been marginal? Or my second thought is if the meplat could have been accidentally damaged? One of the reasons that I am very excited about the HHT line is the fact that the tip protects the meplat from accidental damage. Also the hollow point in the HHT line is a 2mm hollow point making expansion easier than with the Hammer Hunter line so the possibility of this happening is very unlikely.

What is your barrel twist, elev, and temp at the time of the shot?

 

[snox801]

Right. It doesn't automatically mean it'll tumble. I'm not sure we even know if this one did tumble for sure. We just know it barely opened up, didn't penetrate far, and had an entry hole around 1.5"

And we know how the 199gr HH is constructed.

Correct I think we can be led to believe it tumbled or the penetration would have been farther. Not sure how it couldn't that speed and mass has to be slowed somehow. Unless you got a very short throw of powder but at that distance it would have meant a missed shot low.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Pretty sure the bullet tumbled. Would never have stopped in the animal if there was straight line penetration.

In my first post I failed to mention the 3rd thing that can cause this result is impact with something prior to hitting the animal. Brush or twig.

 

[muleystalker]

I believe the OP stated it was an 8 twist out of a 300PRC.