Bullet Construction vs Lethality

[Calvin45]

Without posts the forum dies. One way or another the post HAVE to keep coming.

In a perfect world we'd all be shooting or loading or hunting, not talking about it on the internet. It's not a perfect world…thank God for LRH!!!!

 

[nralifer]

Hold on to your seat

This Forum is named Long Range Hunting. No surprises if a lot of the content is focused on bullets and other equipment in common use by hunters that shoot animals off the adjacent mountain.

Bullets used in Long Range Hunting have to shoot with equal or greater accuracy / precision than bullets used for Close Range Hunting. It is harder to hit a target or animal at long range than at close range.

Pretty safe to presume any bullet enjoying popular use for Long Range Hunting (mountainside to mountainside) would shoot accurately enough for your Close Range Hunting. So no worries...

You are correct in saying long range bullets should also work well at closer ranges. Long range high BC lead core bullets are made of materials that have high ductility so they don't resist compressive impact forces as well as all copper bullets. The combination of high MV and high BC means a greater impact velocity at short range with proportionally higher compressive forces which, if large enough, may cause a catastrophic failure of the bullet to even penetrate the hide. Just such an occurrence happened to one of the Proof Research employees. Shot an Elk at 200 yds with an ELD-X bullet from a 20 or 22" barrel. Although the shot was perfectly placed, the bullet splattered on impact and the Elk ran off. The owner of the property killed that Elk about two weeks later and saw the old wound that was simply an ulcer that barely broke the hide. A partitioned bullet or a reliably expanding all copper high BC bullet would have worked a lot better.

 

[bultinkle]

Just such an occurrence happened to one of the Proof Research employees. Shot an Elk at 200 yds with an ELD-X bullet from a 20 or 22" barrel. Although the shot was perfectly placed, the bullet splattered on impact and the Elk ran off. The owner of the property killed that Elk about two weeks later and saw the old wound that was simply an ulcer that barely broke the hide.

video?

 

[Pdvdh]

You are correct in saying long range bullets should also work well at closer ranges. Long range high BC lead core bullets are made of materials that have high ductility so they don't resist compressive impact forces as well as all copper bullets. The combination of high MV and high BC means a greater impact velocity at short range with proportionally higher compressive forces which, if large enough, may cause a catastrophic failure of the bullet yo even penetrate the hide. Just such an occurrence happened to one of the Proof Research employees. Shot an Elk at 200 yds with an ELD-X bullet from a 20 or 22" barrel. Although the shot was perfectly placed, the bullet splattered on impact and the Elk ran off. The owner of the property killed that Elk about two weeks later and saw the old wound that was simply an ulcer that barely broke the hide. A partitioned bullet or a reliably expanding all copper high BC bullet would have worked a lot better.

I agree bullet construction is also a consideration for high velocity impacts.

Just that the member I was responding to only posted a concern with accuracy. So I carefully worded my response to address only accuracy.

"Pretty safe to presume any bullet enjoying popular use for Long Range Hunting (mountainside to mountainside) would shoot accurately enough for your Close Range Hunting."

 

[Petey308]

You are correct in saying long range bullets should also work well at closer ranges. Long range high BC lead core bullets are made of materials that have high ductility so they don't resist compressive impact forces as well as all copper bullets. The combination of high MV and high BC means a greater impact velocity at short range with proportionally higher compressive forces which, if large enough, may cause a catastrophic failure of the bullet yo even penetrate the hide. Just such an occurrence happened to one of the Proof Research employees. Shot an Elk at 200 yds with an ELD-X bullet from a 20 or 22" barrel. Although the shot was perfectly placed, the bullet splattered on impact and the Elk ran off. The owner of the property killed that Elk about two weeks later and saw the old wound that was simply an ulcer that barely broke the hide. A partitioned bullet or a reliably expanding all copper high BC bullet would have worked a lot better.

So were all the other occasions where an ELDX did work, or when an SST, ELDM, TMK, SMK, TGK, Berger, Nosler Accubond or Long Range Accubond, Nosler BT, Swift Scirocco, etc, etc, etc worked in similar conditions just a fluke?

A partitioned lead core or mono may very well have worked better in that very specific scenario, but I'm confident those aren't the only options that would have. I know you didn't say those are the only two options that would have though. I'm just clarifying is all.

There are indeed many scenarios where if you hunt closer ranges only, or at least mostly, and especially if you're using a fast pushing magnum cartridge, that a well constructed and selected mono is indeed a great choice.

If you're hunting often to either distances that impact velocities regularly dip below like 2200fps, with slower or just medium velocity cartridges, or both, a more frangible bullet that does very well in those conditions tends to be more consistent and produce more reliable quick and clean kills. I'm not saying monos don't or can't. They do indeed. Many of them expand way less though getting below 2200fps, which will begin to greatly reduce wound channel size or forgiveness to shot placement errors. The type that shed petals work best by using that remaining shank and flat front to produce hydraulic force, and even if the petals shed down to like 1600fps, there will be MUCH less speed, momentum, and energy left to convert into a great deal of hydraulic force necessary for really wide wounding and that same forgiveness.

So until we get a mono that truly can do it all emphatically, I personally believe that certain lead cores are a great choice still for certain applications, and perhaps even better for certain applications. I'm not saying they're better overall. I already said monos are a great choice for certain applications too.

To be perfectly clear, or at least try to be lol, I know many monos are used with great success now at long range. They can work at long range just like lead cores can work well at close range. Some of both are better than others.

And monos that have a very high BC only make themselves more effective as well. Since I already mentioned they work best at higher impact velocities (whether petals peeled back or only a shank remaining), the more velocity is retained, the further their range and the better and more reliable they'll work. So again, BC matters for some- or all.

Just a bit of playing devils advocate and keeping the conversation going and give each person's preference a fair acknowledgment.

 

[Terry Scott]

Clearly big bullets at any speed kills things
Why wade through minutia
We all know a well placed shot kills?
So why the conversation?
Lead kils
Where lead is illegal copper kills too why the discussion?
Dead is dead?

 

[Teri Anne]

Barbour creek teaches you to shoot golf balls at 1000 at the end of the first day iirc,-- take a look at his school's and website--- pretty sure he doesn't have much trouble hitting gel blocks at 1000-- when your job is to shoot and teach long range shooting 365 days a year- you get pretty good at it.

Being the pessimist that I am I doubt that anyone can hit a golf ball at 1000 yards with each shot no matter how good they are. I see the golf ball on the web site, but don't see where it says that they teach you to be able to do that. I did a fair amount of 1000 yard shooting in the Army and while we were not shooting the new precision rifles (Winchester Model 70 Match Rifles in 300 H&H Mag) keeping the shots in the 10 ring of a 1000 yard target was difficult enough. I went through the long range shooting introduction out at Vortex last January. The intro course is shot on their indoor 100 yard range using Ruger Precision Rifles chambered for the 6.5 Creepmore. The final exercise was to shoot a 5 shot group at an ace of spades card at 100 yards to see how tight a group you could shoot. One of my students, Kathy had come along and was taking the course with me, and my final group, as measured by the Vortex instructors was .856 (see attached photo and yes there are 5 shots there) Of course my student did better than I did, shooting a .650. (My students often outshoot me and I have absolutely no problem with that) The point here is that even shooting with modern rifles in a touted very good target caliber nobody's shots were going to hit a golf ball at 1000 yards, even indoors, prone with a rest, no wind, no mirage and no pressure at 1000 yards. I would love to see any of the Barbour Creek instructors shoot 10 out of 10 golf balls a 1000 yards. The one that is shown on the web site is a selling point, can it be done, yes. Can it be done on a regular basis? I doubt it and if they can show me how to do that even 5 out of 10 shots I will sign up for their course.

 

[Petey308]

Clearly big bullets at any speed kills things
Why wade through minutia
We all know a well placed shot kills?
So why the conversation?
Lead kils
Where lead is illegal copper kills too why the discussion?
Dead is dead?

Profound.


Because anyone that's hunted long enough has either experienced not so dead, or knows someone that has. So trying to prevent that is always worth pursuing.

If it really didn't matter, there wouldn't be hundreds/thousands of different bullets and cartridges out there and many different caliber sizes.

 

[Pdvdh]

I don't hunt golf balls unless I'm carrying a golf club.

 

[Stokesrjsr]

Was guiding/helping on a trophy bull hunt in unit 9 AZ in 2018. Called a bull into 24 yards opening morning. Watched an arrow barely penetrate the shoulder area on a dead broadside shot, (poor shot). Bull took off and after 4-5 running steps arrow was out. After examining arrow it was determined it penetrated maybe 3". Tip of the arrow looked like it hit a piece of concrete. Bow was a 70lb draw weight Bowtech. I've seen them blow through deer shoulders. Crazy how tough those are.

If you have the right arrow and broadhead it will blow through an elks scapula or even break the humerus with enough left to get through the thorax if not exit. I shot a cow elk through both shoulders last year and the arrow exited, hit the ground and skipped. The elk went down in sight and the arrow was found 29 yards beyond where the elk was standing.
That was with a Grizzly Stick 240 spine arrow weighing 653 grains including the 200 grain Maasai single bevel broadhead. It is very important that the bow be tuned to shoot that arrow perfectly straight as this one was as evidenced by the paper with a bear shaft and a fletched shaft shot through it.
Now I know a cow elk shoulder is easier to penetrate than a mature bulls shouder but I have killed 17 bulls with a bow and had all kinds of different results from barely making it to the other side of the rib cage to like this one, exiting with gusto.
I consider a 40 yard shot on an elk with a bow about as difficult as a 400 yard shot with a rifle, and both are equally deadly and both require an equally well constructed bullet or arrow to produce optimum, not just barely making it results.
I choose a 30-378 Weatherby and a Berger 215 grain Hybrid Target bullet because I know without doubt it will do the job.
But I will also say many other combinations will do the job also.

 

[Teri Anne]

Yup they did test out to distance. Some of the distances varied. Other people just shot into gel at lower velocities. Barbour Creek generally shoots into 20% ballistics gel rather than 10%.

So in essence there is no real standard. Everyone does their own thing??

 

[Wyo37]

You are correct in saying long range bullets should also work well at closer ranges. Long range high BC lead core bullets are made of materials that have high ductility so they don't resist compressive impact forces as well as all copper bullets. The combination of high MV and high BC means a greater impact velocity at short range with proportionally higher compressive forces which, if large enough, may cause a catastrophic failure of the bullet yo even penetrate the hide. Just such an occurrence happened to one of the Proof Research employees. Shot an Elk at 200 yds with an ELD-X bullet from a 20 or 22" barrel. Although the shot was perfectly placed, the bullet splattered on impact and the Elk ran off. The owner of the property killed that Elk about two weeks later and saw the old wound that was simply an ulcer that barely broke the hide. A partitioned bullet or a reliably expanding all copper high BC bullet would have worked a lot better.

So you're saying a bullet that struck an animal at 200yds just "splattered" and didn't penetrate the animal at all? What was the impact velocity?

I would absolutely love to see actual documentation of this.

 

[FEENIX]

Clearly big bullets at any speed kills things
Why wade through minutia
We all know a well placed shot kills?
So why the conversation?
Lead kils
Where lead is illegal copper kills too why the discussion?
Dead is dead?

The conversation is not the issue; how it turns into a s**t show is. It discourages people from engaging and sharing information and hinders people from wanting to learn.

 

[Phil Rizzo]

So you're saying a bullet that struck an animal at 200yds just "splattered" and didn't penetrate the animal at all? What was the impact velocity?

I would absolutely love to see actual documentation of this.

I don't recall all the specifics but wasn't there an ELD that came apart mid-flight some years back?