Bullet Construction vs Lethality

[FEENIX]

There are 0 reasons to use 100% copper projectiles.

I have no problem in providing it as an option/alternative, but let the end-users decide without pushing it as the magic bullet because there is no such thing. A good product will sell itself. Also, stay away from politics/hidden agendas and be civil when people express their opinions that do not fit their narrative.

 

[Pdvdh]

Try Apex Outdoors Afterburners and see if they give you what you're looking for.

I reviewed the Apex offerings a couple months ago. They were interesting. So I just reviewed their website again now. I still see very limited bullet offerings. I do now see a .338 bullet offering. Which is encouraging.

They seem to focus on lighter weight for caliber bullets. While the BC value for their given weight class may be good, they won't be able to compete with the BC values that the Cutting Edge Bullets or Badlands Precision copper mono bullets provide, in heavier per caliber bullet weight offerings.

As an example, Apex now offers the .338 caliber bullet, but only in a 200gr bullet. It has a meager associated BC value, compared to other competitor's heavier weight .338 copper monos.

Their website literature stresses the importance they place on their bullets being short enough in length to allow fitment in the magazines of most rifles. That's a real head scratcher for me? On the one hand they're promoting high BC value bullets. On the other hand, limiting the potential for higher BC bullets by focusing on the lighter per caliber bullets, in order to ensure cartridges loaded with their bullets are short enough for magazine feed.

Many long range hunters are content shooting longer, higher BC-value bullets single-shot style. The cartridge loaded with the longer, higher BC value bullets will indeed be too long to fit in most rifles' magazine boxes. But the value of the higher bullet BC at longer yardage shots greatly exceeds the value of a magazine fit length cartridge. Therefore..., load them single-shot style.

Sorta forces me to the conclusion that Apex is currently catering to lead-free hunters shooting mid-range and closer distances. Not hunters engaging game animals past 600 yards. So they've got my attention, but currently not my order. Not until, and unless, they begin offering longer, heavier per caliber, higher BC value bullets. I'm not sure they ever intend to? Based on their current philosophy and prioritization for magazine-length feed copper mono bullets.

 

[Calvin45]

Here I will stir the pot.......people who choose 100% copper bullets are suckers.

There I said it hammer cult.

What about people who choose all kinds of different bullets for different purposes and are that there really are some areas where the monos are better? Asking for a friend…

 

[Lou270]

There are 0 reasons to use 100% copper projectiles.

Deep penetration is a very valid reason to use copper bullets whether you buy into the lead free crap or not. Copper bullets simply will not deform as much as a lead core bullet since it us a much harder material. Contrary to hype this comes at the expense of a less extensive wound channel but some scenarios hedging bet with the deepest penetraring design that still expands/deforms is a good choice.

Lou

 

[Calvin45]

Deep penetration is a very valid reason to use copper bullets whether you buy into the lead free crap or not. Copper bullets simply will not deform as much as a lead core bullet since it us a much harder material. Contrary to hype this comes at the expense of a less extensive wound channel but some scenarios hedging bet with the deepest penetraring design that still expands/deforms is a good choice.

Lou

Would you describe this as narrow wounding sir? There's not a lead core on earth that would do more damage than this. Too much damage if anything, I could put my fist in the hole.

 

[Calvin45]

That's an exit wound from a Barnes 120 tac tx that left the muzzle at 4050 fps and poleaxed a doe at around 200 yards.

 

[Wyo37]

That's an exit wound from a Barnes 120 tac tx that left the muzzle at 4050 fps and poleaxed a doe at around 200 yards.

A lead core bullet could do that starting 1000fps slower.

 

[FEENIX]

Deep penetration is a very valid reason to use copper bullets whether you buy into the lead free crap or not. Copper bullets simply will not deform as much as a lead core bullet since it us a much harder material. Contrary to hype this comes at the expense of a less extensive wound channel but some scenarios hedging bet with the deepest penetraring design that still expands/deforms is a good choice.

Lou

I will stick to lead core bullets since I have an option and I am not being forced to, especially knowing marijuana users in the test group had 27% higher levels of lead in their blood and 21% higher levels in their urine compared to people who don't take weed, according to the Environmental Health Perspective study.

 

[Petey308]

I reviewed the Apex offerings a couple months ago. They were interesting. So I just reviewed their website again now. I still see very limited bullet offerings. I do now see a .338 bullet offering. Which is encouraging.

They seem to focus on lighter weight for caliber bullets. While the BC value for their given weight class may be good, they won't be able to compete with the BC values that the Cutting Edge Bullets or Badlands Precision copper mono bullets provide, in heavier per caliber bullet weight offerings.

As an example, Apex now offers the .338 caliber bullet, but only in a 200gr bullet. It has a meager associated BC value, compared to other competitors heavier weight .338 copper monos.

Their website literature stresses the importance they place on their bullets being short enough in length to allow fitment in the magazines of most rifles. That's a real head scratcher for me? On the one hand they're promoting high BC value bullets. On the other hand, limiting the potential for higher BC bullets by focusing on the lighter per caliber bullets, in order to ensure cartridges loaded with their bullets are short enough for magazine feed.

Many long range hunters are content shooting longer, higher BC bullets, single-shot style. The cartridge loaded with the longer, higher BC value bullet will be too long to fit in rifles' magazine boxes. But the value of the higher bullet BC at longer yardage shots greatly exceeds the value of a magazine fit length cartridge. Therefore, load them single-shot style.

Sorta forces me to the conclusion that Apex is currently catering to lead-free hunters shooting mid-range and closer distances. Not hunters engaging game animals past 600 yards. So they've got my attention, but currently not my order. Not until, and unless, they begin offering longer, heavier per caliber, higher BC value bullets. I'm not sure they ever intend to? Based on their current philosophy and prioritization for magazine-length feed copper mono bullets.

I've followed Apex for a long time. I text with the owner fairly regularly.

Yes, he started out by producing and offering what fits a more common use. It only makes sense to do that. He's working on pushing out options that cater to true longer range with heavier higher BC options, and has some new options out now. He has much more already designed and planned, they're just not all released at once.

His first Gen Afterburners beat out many of the competitors regarding BC, but another thing to consider is how they perform terminally in comparison to others as well. It all comes together.

Mark (the owner) hasn't been in business as long as many of his closest competitors yet. He's releasing things as he goes to keep ahold of costs and the ability to keep going. Just keep an eye on him though as he releases more bullets that will indeed compete with all the other options others have, and they will satisfy the points you make.

My point was just that Apex is offering options that @JTH was asking for, and will only be producing more and "better" options. Even the ones he has out currently compete very well with their particular competitors within the same class.

I'm sure all the companies out there will continue to make evolutions and put out new and better bullets as well.

 

[Calvin45]

A lead core bullet could do that starting 1000fps slower.

Maybe but I haven't seen that. I do use lead core bullets a fair bit too…and maybe you're right, probably are, BUT…I'm also confident a lead core bullet would SPLASH at these velocities and I like the trajectory with guaranteed penetration AND wounding as broad as any lead core bullet. Now mind you this projectile was designed for 300 black out…I do share the sentiment that heavy for caliber all copper bullets at "normal" velocities are inferior to the leaded brethren in regards to violence rendered. There's a ton of evidence that, especially at moderate to low velocity, lead affects broader wounding. I'm not unreasonable haha! But it is unreasonable to make a blanket statement that copper bullets, regardless of weight, sd, velocity, and manufacturer just unequivocally suck and are always inferior to lead cores. There's no shortage of evidence, in fact there's a mountain of evidence, that this just isn't so.

 

[Pdvdh]

Yes, he started out by producing and offering what fits a more common use. It only makes sense to do that.

Just keep an eye on him though as he releases more bullets that will indeed compete with all the other options others have, and they will satisfy the points you make.

Nice! Good to know. Thanks for those additional details.

 

[FEENIX]

I've followed Apex for a long time. I text with the owner fairly regularly.

Yes, he started out by producing and offering what fits a more common use. It only makes sense to do that. He's working on pushing out options that cater to true longer range with heavier higher BC options, and has some new options out now. He has much more already designed and planned, they're just not all released at once.

His first Gen Afterburners beat out many of the competitors regarding BC, but another thing to consider is how they perform terminally in comparison to others as well. It all comes together.

Mark (the owner) hasn't been in business as long as many of his closest competitors yet. He's releasing things as he goes to keep ahold of costs and the ability to keep going. Just keep an eye on him though as he releases more bullets that will indeed compete with all the other options others have, and they will satisfy the points you make.

My point was just that Apex is offering options that @JTH was asking for, and will only be producing more and "better" options. Even the ones he has out currently compete very well with their particular competitors within the same class.

I'm sure all the companies out there will continue to make evolutions and put out new and better bullets as well.

Mark is a darn good guy, too!

 

[Petey308]

Maybe but I haven't seen that. I do use lead core bullets a fair bit too…and maybe you're right, probably are, BUT…I'm also confident a lead core bullet would SPLASH at these velocities and I like the trajectory with guaranteed penetration AND wounding as broad as any lead core bullet. Now mind you this projectile was designed for 300 black out…I do share the sentiment that heavy for caliber all copper bullets at "normal" velocities are inferior to the leaded brethren in regards to violence rendered. There's a ton of evidence that, especially at moderate to low velocity, lead affects broader wounding. I'm not unreasonable haha! But it is unreasonable to make a blanket statement that copper bullets, regardless of weight, sd, velocity, and manufacturer just unequivocally suck and are always inferior to lead cores. There's no shortage of evidence, in fact there's a mountain of evidence, that this just isn't so.

I don't know anyone that's pushing light for caliber lead core bullets to 3500, 3700, 4000, 4000+ fps for hunting, and for obvious reasons.

Seems illogical to say or imply copper bullets are superior because you can do that. It's not a fair comparison. I'd hope the copper bullet would perform in the way you showed, otherwise it's not working properly. If you loaded a properly selected lead core bullet (proper construction and mass) in that same rifle for the same shot, I'm confident you'd have gotten the same or similar result.

You picked the copper bullet you did for a reason. You'd need to pick the right lead core bullet for a reason too.

 

[Calvin45]

I don't know anyone that's pushing light for caliber lead core bullets to 3500, 3700, 4000, 4000+ fps for hunting, and for obvious reasons.

Seems illogical to say or imply copper bullets are superior because you can do that. It's not a fair comparison. I'd hope the copper bullet would perform in the way you showed, otherwise it's not working properly. If you loaded a properly selected lead core bullet (proper construction and mass) in that same rifle for the same shot, I'm confident you'd have gotten the sane or similar result.

You picked the copper bullet you did for a reason. You'd need to pick the right lead core bullet for a reason too.

Yep no argument either way. 225 eld m at 2760 does good things too and is better at range but doesn't have the stupid flat trajectory inside 500