CatShooter
Well-Known Member
Lights? What Lights? We ain't got no lights! We don't need no steeeeeenkin' lights!
(Alphonso Bedoya - 1948)
Brass Separation Above Belt
- Thread starter curtiscd
- Start date
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Lights? What Lights? We ain't got no lights! We don't need no steeeeeenkin' lights!
(Alphonso Bedoya - 1948)
bigedp51
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2010
- Messages
- 1,022
Do you mean Scooterbum is this forums F.Guffey?
Shoulder Bumping & Neck Sizing
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/shoulder-bumping-neck-sizing.3924135/
CatShooter
Well-Known Member
I thunk it...
He may have issues with this. Just count how many times he has typed BM.
Alex Wheeler
Well-Known Member
Belted case or not, take a measurement from the shoulder to the bottom of the case with a shoulder comparator. Push the shoulder back .002" after firing in a fl die. Cases last for ever. Unless they expand at the base enough that you cant size them back down and they always fit tight, this is the issue with belts.
bigedp51
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2010
- Messages
- 1,022
If everyone had a British .303 Enfield rifle and played with their bolt heads till they nearly went blind they would have a better understanding of the word headspace.
My No.4 Enfield below has had the headspace set from .006 tighter than the GO gauge and .010 over maximum military headspace. Meaning from .058 to .084 and SAAMI headspace is .064 GO and .067 NO-GO and .074 field maximum.
So even with the headspace set at .084 or .010 over max military headspace if the case is held against the bolt face the case will not stretch and thin on its first firing. Meaning creating a false shoulder, jamming the bullet into the lands or using a rubber o-ring to hold the case against the bolt face.
Below using 100 grain .312 pistol bullets and a rubber O-ring to fire form cases. At max military headspace you can have .016 head clearance and a small thin rubber O-ring will hold the case against the bolt face.
Bottom line, don't let the case stretch on its first firing and let it headspace on its shoulder thereafter.
My No.4 Enfield below has had the headspace set from .006 tighter than the GO gauge and .010 over maximum military headspace. Meaning from .058 to .084 and SAAMI headspace is .064 GO and .067 NO-GO and .074 field maximum.
So even with the headspace set at .084 or .010 over max military headspace if the case is held against the bolt face the case will not stretch and thin on its first firing. Meaning creating a false shoulder, jamming the bullet into the lands or using a rubber o-ring to hold the case against the bolt face.
Below using 100 grain .312 pistol bullets and a rubber O-ring to fire form cases. At max military headspace you can have .016 head clearance and a small thin rubber O-ring will hold the case against the bolt face.
Bottom line, don't let the case stretch on its first firing and let it headspace on its shoulder thereafter.
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
This has become quite entertaining 
.
Everyone needs to load the way they want to and live with the results !!!!
I have my way, but it doesn't mean that it is the only way or the best way, It is Just My Way.
J E CUSTOM
.Everyone needs to load the way they want to and live with the results !!!!
I have my way, but it doesn't mean that it is the only way or the best way, It is Just My Way.
J E CUSTOM
JE how do you feel about neck sizing? When i size for my 7 Rem i bottom out my die and back it off a half turn. This seems to be repeatable but reading your post i wonder if i will get more life out of my cases by just neck sizing since it has fire formed to the chamber. Just want to pick your brain if i could.
Thanks
Thanks
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
That's actually what I like to do until the cases start being hard to chamber. Then I will size only enough to chamber. I have never had to bump the shoulder on purpose because the case shoulder will allow .004 to .006 thousandths of crush with little force . I also Like to anneal the necks and shoulder after 3 or 4 sizing's And check for cartridge growth against the original case length. This way I can better predict case life and neck thinning. when using a full length die, it sizes the entire case body also so by backing of on the full length die you are essentially just full sizing the entire case (Just a little less than the die can do).
The less you work the brass the better the case life. This is also the reason I prefer bushing dies. They size the neck one time each loading, firing expands the neck to fit the chamber and the bushing sizes it down. so the neck has been worked twice. a conventional die over sizes the neck, then the expander ball sizes it back up to get the desired bullet grip. This means that the brass is worked 3 times for each loading as compared to only twice using the bushing. It doesn't sound like much difference but it is a 33% improvement.
Also High pressure does the same thing because it expand the case to a larger size than the chamber making it a must to size the entire case body, shoulder and neck reducing brass life and thinning the case until you have to trim it to chamber length. If one choses to load hot, brass/case life is shortened (The price we pay for speed) This is another advantage of 30o to 40o shoulders (These case designs grow very little even with hot loads and tend not to lengthen very much more than 1.or 2 thousandths per firing.
Just my experiences
J E CUSTOM
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LoneTraveler
Well-Known Member
I agree with JE Custom on first shot, The case fire forms to the chamber, Then neck size only for longer case life.
I got my first Belted Mag. in 1966 a 264 WM. NS Die only, Long range ground hog rifle. Later 7mm Rem Mag and 338 WM.
I had a 3 piece die set for the 7mm RM, (Full Length, Neck size and seating die). Dies went with gun when sold.
I have a 3 piece set for my 338 WM I bought it in 1994. (Full Length, Neck size and Seating Die). The only time I use the FL Die is when prepping new cases, I like to use FL sized new cases for hunting loads. My brother has a 338 WM too, We check our loads in both guns so if something happens on a trip we can trade shells. No case separation trouble as of today.
Belted magnum cases are designed to head space on the belt not on the shoulder. Once the case shoulder is fire formed to the chamber. Neck size or bushing size the case for longer case life.
I got my first Belted Mag. in 1966 a 264 WM. NS Die only, Long range ground hog rifle. Later 7mm Rem Mag and 338 WM.
I had a 3 piece die set for the 7mm RM, (Full Length, Neck size and seating die). Dies went with gun when sold.
I have a 3 piece set for my 338 WM I bought it in 1994. (Full Length, Neck size and Seating Die). The only time I use the FL Die is when prepping new cases, I like to use FL sized new cases for hunting loads. My brother has a 338 WM too, We check our loads in both guns so if something happens on a trip we can trade shells. No case separation trouble as of today.
Belted magnum cases are designed to head space on the belt not on the shoulder. Once the case shoulder is fire formed to the chamber. Neck size or bushing size the case for longer case life.
Alex Wheeler
Well-Known Member
Sizing brass is a maintenance thing. The reason you full length size every time is to make the cases last as long as possible. The base of the case expands. Most of the time the dies do not not size the base enough. If you neck size you allow the base to expand every firing and a lot of times you cant bring it back down even with a small base die. Full length sizing with a correctly sized die pushing the shoulder back minimally will produce the best accuracy and longest life. Competitors have been doing this for many years. Be careful with having a little resistance on your bolt close, thats a great way to gall the back of the lugs.
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CatShooter
Well-Known Member
FL Sizing does not make the cases last as long as possible... the less you move brass, the longer it lasts.
If you have a very tight chamber, you might have problems with the web-ring getting tight - but for that problem, you need to size the base with a ring die (click die) once in a while (a better solution it to open up a bit in the back of the chamber a few thou).... but with most chambers, the web ring cannot expand enough to be a problem... cuz it has a very limited amount that it can expand - these are problems that come about with minimum body chambers.
Maximum accuracy comes with the best (tightest) fit of the case (along with other factors)... anything less is detrimental to accuracy.
Resistance on closing the bolt might cause problems IF you have lapped the lugs and left then with a rough ground surface - but if the bolt lug surface is clean and smooth, they will not gall at all.
One of my 40-XB is on it's 6th barrel, and every case fired in it was a tight, crush fit - the lugs were never greased, just a light oil, and there is no gall.
Alex Wheeler
Well-Known Member
First off, you cant size the web. Thats not the issue. Regardless the size of the chamber the brass will expand to fit and eventually get tight. Once that happens your stuck hoping your fl die will bring it down enough, most times it wont. The statement about tighter is more accurate is totally wrong. We have experimented with this in Benchrest and tighter is not more accurate, I suggest you do some testing here. Also look up galling, a clean smooth surface is more likely to gall then a rough one. That is some old behind the times info.
CatShooter
Well-Known Member
First off... You CAN size the ring at the junction of the body and the web... Pbike makes a die for it. It is that ring that causes bolt click.
"Regaurdless" ???
