Brass Separation Above Belt

[CatShooter]

I would check the headspace before Idid anything. If you have to rent a set from 4D reamer rentals, it would be about 20.00. If the headspace is correct then I would get get some better brass and not bump the shoulders back so far. Setting the barrel back to match the dies is not fixing the problem. There is nothing wrong with FL sizing done properly.

I DID check the headspace - it is 0.007", which is well inside of SAAMI.
There is nothing wrong with the headspace, so why would I rent a chewed up old reamer and ruin a perfect chamber.

Do you guys understand what this is about, or are you just blowing noise??

 

[Scooterbum]

If u don't setback, then u have to give constant vigilance while jumping through ur never ending hoops. THAT doesn't make sense!

 

[Scooterbum]

No reaming needed.

 

[CatShooter]

If u don't setback, then u have to give constant vigilance while jumping through ur never ending hoops. THAT doesn't make sense!

Set back WHAT?? That does not make sense - there is nothing to setback. There are no "hoops".

 

[CatShooter]

No reaming needed.

If you set the barrel back WITHOUT reaming, the cases won't chamber (and the barrel markings will wind up under the barrel, and the gun will be worthless.

 

[L.Sherm]

I DID check the headspace - it is 0.007", which is well inside of SAAMI.
There is nothing wrong with the headspace, so why would I rent a chewed up old reamer and ruin a perfect chamber.

Do you guys understand what this is about, or are you just blowing noise??

Calm down I'm not talking about you I was referring to the orignal O.P.s post it is his thread.

I DID check the headspace - it is 0.007", which is well inside of SAAMI.
There is nothing wrong with the headspace, so why would I rent a chewed up old reamer and ruin a perfect chamber.

Do you guys understand what this is about, or are you just blowing noise??

 

[bigngreen]

Set the FL die on a full blown out case and be done with it. A belted case sometimes needs a little more thought put into the process but it's simple.
If you set an in spec barrel back and creates a whole host of other issues that will plague the entire process!!

 

[Scooterbum]

I have a 264 Win Mag that has 0.007" belt headspace, and 0.036" (yup, 36 thou) shoulder headspace.
When I fire a new case, the shoulder blows forward from 32 to 36 thou. If I push that shoulder back, and shoot it again, I will get 2 or 3 reloads before it separates.

Soooo... I oil the case with very light oil (G-96), and fire the case - the oil allows the whole case to slip back without ANY stretch at all.
Then I neck size with a Bushing "S" die, and shoot the case again, etc.
IF, the case reaches the point that bolt closing is more difficult than I am willing to live with, I will use a Body die to move the shoulder back 0.001" at a time, until there is still bolt closure resistance, but I can live with it - set up that way, the cases last forever..

BNG,

Here's his post. He immediately, and forever, undertakes jumping through hoops to "cure" the problem of a too long chamber. Single point the barrel shoulder to fit the die.

 

[bigngreen]

That would be the solution on a none belted case if you wanted min spec headspace.
A belted case that you want to reload has to be thought of as having two datums, the headspace on the belt and the shoulder, in a belted case these two datums will never be out of spec to each other when cut with a reamer since you can't over ream one with doing the other.
If your headspace is right the shoulder is right to where the spec is, you can change this but then your not running a Saami spec chamber nor will you be on the die after your done.

 

[Scooterbum]

It's too hard for some to comprehend. Someday, the light will come on.

 

[bigngreen]

It's too hard for some to comprehend. Someday, the light will come on.

We have a prime example!!

 

[J E Custom]

This is an age old problem with belted cases and the reason many don't like them. "But" belted cases have there advantages if acted on.

I personally Like less head space for belted cases because it increases the brass life from the first shot on. Irregardless of what the head space is in the beginning, Brass life from then on is determined by the amount of sizing done to the case. Belted case dies are designed to size the case back to factory specifications. The design purpose of the belted case is to hold the case at a safe head space but allow a under size case body to fit loosely in a belted chamber for dependable chambering in crisis situations and dirty or fouled chambers (It was originally designed for dangerous game at close range).

There is never a need to Bump the shoulder of a belted case because it is already much shorter than the chamber. In fact the best way to deal with this on a belted case is to Fire form first, (This matches the case to your chamber, and reduces the head space by pushing the case back against the bolt) now the head space is .000 and supported by the shoulder on the case and not the belt anymore. all that is needed from then on, is to size only enough to chamber the cartridge. (Just like shouldered cases are sized)

On the first firing of a belted case you will get considerable case length growth because of case and chamber design. After that case growth and case head separation can be minimized by minimum sizing. normally, case growth is confined to the neck, if sizing is minimal because it is the only part of the case that is unrestrained by the chamber.

Dies for belted cases can be used this way if they are re adjusted to only size to fit the chamber. (They can be simply backed of the normal setting) Note: when using belted cartridges on dangerous game they should be full length sized and ran through your rifle to make sure that they will chamber with ease. (Without a firing pin if possible for safety)

I really like belted cases for wildcats because the can be fire formed with ease because of the belt and then be sized and loaded just like a shouldered case/cartridge. In fact if head space is held to a minimum of .0005 to .001,5 in the beginning,case life can/will be as good or better than shouldered cases/cartridges. and giving the owner the best of both worlds. Safety when needed on game intent on ruining your day, and accuracy and brass life when doing lots of shooting/reloading.

J E CUSTOM

 

[Scooterbum]

We have a prime example!!

Insulting. The prime example is peeps who can't run a BM because they don't understand them.

These are the same as those that can't get the web sized cuz they're not camming over.

Cat is separating, but he doesn't understand why. So he greases up the case with ky.

 

[bigedp51]

The rimmed and belted cases were invented in a time when manufacturing methods were not as precise as the are today. On top of this the British invented the belted cartridge and used cordite powder that looked like long strands of spaghetti. And the cordite was placed in the cases before the case shoulder and neck were formed.
Bottom line, with a rimmed or belted case the shoulder location is not critical.

Below a new unfired rimmed British .303 case in a Wilson case gauge. Sorry I do not have belted case photos but a rimmed and belted case use the same headspace system at the "rear" of the case.

And now a fired case resting on its shoulder in the Wilson gauge. The amount the case is sticking above the gauge is how much longer the chamber is than the Wilson gauge.

And the biggest thing causing the case head separations is the head clearance or the "air space" between the rear of the case and the bolt.

Bottom line the belted case has excessive head clearance and needs to headspace on its shoulder and not the belt. Meaning you neck size or partially full length resize and only bump the shoulder back .001 to .002 for longer case life.

The second problem with belted cases is if the case is at minimum SAAMI diameter just above the belt. And when the case expands in a large diameter chamber it stretches outward excessively. Meaning the case is stretching in length and diameter and the brass thins above the belt.

Below a new .303 British case on the left, a once fired case in the center and a full length resized case that started to separate on its second firing.

Below is what happens when the rimmed or belted cartridge is fired with excessive "head clearance". And if you full length resize with the die making hard contact with the shell holder the cases will stretch and separate.

And below if you let the case headspace on its shoulder the case can not stretch and thin.

Below a trick to prevent case stretching on the British .303 Endfield rifles. A thin rubber o-ring is slipped over the case to hold the case against the bolt face. I posted this to show my buddy CatShooter that case greasers are a dying breed, and there is more than one way to skin a cat.

And because I read too many Jack O'Connor stories in my youth, I always thought the .270 Winchester was the worlds best non-belted magnum.