Berger VLD pencil through Elk in Cold?

[Grizzly60]

It hasn't happened to the MAJORITY of berger shooters, and it won't either. lol

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It hasn't happened to the MAJORITY of berger shooters, and it won't either. lol

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That's a bold statement right there

 

[mmacfive]

Then how do you explain people bitching about Bergers blowing up.

I'm just telling you what he said.

I do know of several high velocity/close range blowups on elk shoulders though.

 

[L.Sherm]

I'm just telling you what he said.

I do know of several high velocity/close range blowups on elk shoulders though.

So Aaron's summary is completely opposite of what you know.
My money is it has more to do with Hornandy being a sponsor now like was stated above.

 

[Grizzly60]

Wait here guys… I'm going to go shoot some deer with a 20gr vmax 17cal because hornady never said I shouldn't.

Come on man. Manufacturers shouldn't be required to prove a negative. Historically, they market what it CAN do and should be used for… not what it can't.

If that's the way you think, then you're not as bright as you claim. Common sense tells one that's not it's purpose.

But with common sense shot placement it will kill a DRT

 

[Pdvdh]

I heard Aaron say that it's hard to initiate expansion with the small untipped hollow point. The affect is exasperated at the reduced velocities. He said he always tries to hit bone with them.

He also mentioned the opposite with tipped match bullets

Thanks for the abreviated version from Aaron!

Everyone else that manufactures a Burger-style bullet has expressed the understanding that the smaller the diameter of the hole in the tip of the bullet, the less reliable the expansion on game. Only Burger has remained silent on that matter. And their QA/QC process doesn't address the opening in the tip of their bullets. It only addresses exterior dimensional tolerances. Worst case is a completely closed tip, jammed tight with solid copper jacket material. If the tip is completely closed, I think the odds of penciling go way up.

Shoot a closed tip Burger-style bullet and you better brain them, or hit solid bone to rupture the jacket. Otherwise the bullet can pass thru like an arrow sporting a field tip. If the bullet doesn't expand, you better hope it tumbles. Myself..., I've not been fortunate enough to get tumbling. Just nose forward FMJ-style pass throughs. AKA penciling.

 

[WeiserBucks]

Are you calling them Burger deliberately?

 

[mmacfive]

I have heard of a whole bunch of failure to expand also so it's not really the opposite of what I know.

You should listen to the podcast to see for yourself if it's because of Hornady. I didn't get that impression after listening to it but somehow you seem to think so without listening to it. What's up with that?

 

[Pdvdh]

Are you calling them Burger deliberately?

Could be the sub-consciousness? Whatever it is, it's consistent with my on-game experiences.

 

[Wanashoot]

I also listened to the complete podcast and he was not negative on berger. He talked about numerous bullets and how they performed. He did say that depending on what bullet type tipped or not that the correct shot placement would be different. I do not understand why so many people are so upset about berger vlds. I have had bad luck with them on three occasions so I now use them for target and not hunting. All three failures came from the same lot and were from 60 yards to about 150 yards so it is possible I had a bad batch but I have never hunted with them again. There are failures with everything and human nature leads you to try something different if it happens to you. Mine did not blow up they did not open up. I have had the same problem with a factory load in a 25:06 and I no longer use them either. If you like them and have had good luck with them It is your choice but to come down on people that have had failures and to become so offensive is not right. I know for a fact it can happen. I do not know what kind of a deal that Gunwerks has a with Hornady but that is also there option.

 

[Pdvdh]

Agreed. If Burgers had performed to my liking, I wouldn't have cared much what others had posted regarding their experiences. I gave them the full-blown college effort and opportunity. Like 8+ seasons. I took it to the extent of meplat uniforming and hollow pointing every Burger bullet I owned, before I would shoot them at a game animal. That resolved the penciling. My remaining objection was the explosive shrapnelling I experienced. Didn't care for that.

Their accuracy was good, and they have good BC values for LRH. Terminal performance wasn't my cup of tea. So I moved on to other bullets for hunting large game.

 

[bigngreen]

I have shot a lot of game with Bergers, enough if there was a real issue that it should have been no issue not only to have happen but to them repeat it to figure out the why.

One 210, that's all I've seen pencil with a super soft placement, still recovered the animal so know for a fact it did pencil and placement.
Even trying to push some envelopes to find the line of failure we have only been able to find a few examples of early opening where we could experiment and find the true cause, each time I've seen a very aggressive opening the jacket was being stressed. One gun I was able to have consistent access too proved it was just the lands were rough and the hunting bullet opened much quicker than in our other guns of the same cal, switched just that gun over to the target bullet and problem solved wound channels tightened up and exits were consistent.
I know of an example I've seen touted as a Berger blow up failure on this forum, I also borescoped the rifle and the throat was like alligator skin, there is no way it was not stressing a cup and core jacket, barrel was replaced and it was good to go again.
The first season the ELDX came out we hadn't made it half way through the season and discontinued shooting them because of how erratic they were, every gun that it was planned to test them through was changed back to the previous bullet with in the first few animals, feedback was swift which was shocking cause I was pretty pumped about them.

 

[bigngreen]

Could be the sub-consciousness? Whatever it is, it's consistent with my on-game experiences.

It's called passive aggressive.

 

[Pdvdh]

It's called passive aggressive.

Rhian,
I don't recall asking a question necessitating your explanation.

But in response to your answering when not asked, I do now have a question or two. Were you truthful in our last PM session when you stated you were never really upset about any viewpoints I presented in our PMs? Also, when you stated very few things in this world are worth getting that upset about? That for real?

Your reply to me in post #180? You upset when you posted that? Something I posted constitute one of those very few things in life worth getting this upset about? Or, is this standard day-in day-out communication.

 

[mmacfive]

I'm not really sure what's going on between you two but if he thinks saying "burgers" is passive aggressive I think that's his problem.

Additionally we are each entitled to our opinions. And wether you believe Bergers are garbage on game or the best thing ever it is simply one persons opinion.