Calvin45
Well-Known Member
Agreed. In the spirit of Christmas why don't we all just agree to disagree about the odd thing
Berger VLD pencil through Elk in Cold?
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bigngreen
Well-Known Member
I remember a time Paul when your posts were from a very provoking engineering angle, always challenging but everything has gone so emotional, I don't know what's happened in your life that your now looking at everything through a much different lens than years ago.
If I was upset I would not respond, nothing about that is from a place of emotional distress but a very clear fact. Same exact thing as when I use Accubomb, it gets the point across in a passive agressive way, probably not the best way to communicate especially now days!!
After about 18 years shooting game with Bergers and seeing alot of others shoot stuff with Bergers without 1 single failure i dont need to listen to podcasts to know how Bergers preform.
Amen to that!Agreed. In the spirit of Christmas why don't we all just agree to disagree about the odd thing
I'm sorry if I offended you L.Sherm.
But thanks for the resume. It's impressive. But please forgive me if I fail to make the connection between your resume and your assumption about what Aaron said in a podcast you didn't listen too?
He actually said he's seen around 500 animals killed with the 7 mm 168 grain Berger and it is phenomenal.
He made a very good rational why he has transitioned to ELDMs and he spoke of the good and bad of them.
You should swallow your ego and listen to it if you are going to comment about it. Who knows, maybe you'll learn something even
But thanks for the resume. It's impressive. But please forgive me if I fail to make the connection between your resume and your assumption about what Aaron said in a podcast you didn't listen too?
He actually said he's seen around 500 animals killed with the 7 mm 168 grain Berger and it is phenomenal.
He made a very good rational why he has transitioned to ELDMs and he spoke of the good and bad of them.
You should swallow your ego and listen to it if you are going to comment about it. Who knows, maybe you'll learn something even
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You didn't offend me, like I said I dont need to listen to podcasts or anybody else for that matter to know how Bergers preform, everbody just needs to shoot the Bullet they want and leave it at that.
Every bullet thread turns into a shitshow especially Bergers.
By the way anybody who doesnt like the 210-215's, 220's or 140- 6.5 send them my way ill make good use of them.
Its awful funny as soon as a 215 hits the shelf its gone, hilarious for such a awful penciling through- blowing up bullet.
Southern 62
Well-Known Member
Time to unwatch this tread. Merry Christmas All
Thanks for responding Rhian. I believe the average reader would view post #180 as I initially did... derogitorily. I seem to be whiffing when it comes to understanding your communication intent.
I'm getting older. In my own mind, mellower in many ways. You express I must have exoerienced a life changing event, and with negative consequences to my personality. So pretty clear we're out of sync. Me? Unaware I've taken any turn for the worse. I spend much less time on this Forum than in prior years. But spent considerable time in this thread doing what I've historically done on this Forum. Express my experiences in response to other's threads, questions, and experiences. Support the right of any member to share their experiences and opinions. Provide technical perspective on explanations for cause and effect, when confidence level is high.
This thread's titled "Berger VLD pencil thru Elk in Cold".
I've largely stayed on-topic. In character with days of old, I provided some engineering perspective on the most likely causes for penciling Burgers
. You'll recall I'm the member on this Forum that originally suggested to Burger's Eric Stecker, that closed bullet tips could be the cause for the occasional penciling, FMJ terminal performance experienced with Burger bullets. Like 12 years ago.Yes, I've been challenged, and been asked some personal bullet use questions. I answered, providing the reasoning behind my hunting bullet selections. A slight drift off-topic, but few threads remain 100% on topic.
So where's that leave us? Easy peasy... Firstly, Merry Christmas! Just as important on this Forum, may your aim be true, your bullets fly straight, and terminate with exquisite bullet performance. Using your bullet of choice.
Yet here we are again.
Brings to mind a couple explanations:
1) Some members haven't seen the show;
2) This show never grows old.
Yep just like the one I explained in post #111
How many years did the Gunwerks crew Shoot Bergers? 10-12? Now there no good LMAO!!!
Hymm,
You complain about the "Berger" **** show but you just can't help yourself can you.
Aaron never said Bergers were bad. Quite the opposite. His listed the 6.5 140's, 7mm 168's, and .308 210's as some of the best.
You should be a little retrospective about how you contribute to the **** show. Slamming opinions different then yours doesn't help things.
You complain about the "Berger" **** show but you just can't help yourself can you.
Aaron never said Bergers were bad. Quite the opposite. His listed the 6.5 140's, 7mm 168's, and .308 210's as some of the best.
You should be a little retrospective about how you contribute to the **** show. Slamming opinions different then yours doesn't help things.
Idaho Lefty
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2018
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- 1,761
When I first got, my .270 WSM, Everybody said, "Shoot AccuBonds" and I did for, a while, THEN, after watching my Arizona Bull, "walk around" the creek Bottom for what seemed like, Forever ( he died, a minute or two later, But, I thought that, I was going to have to Shoot him, AGAIN ! )
Then, Rihan ( Bigngreen ) said,.. "Try, some 140 grain, Berger's",. I did and NOW, I won't use, anything else for, Moose & Elk, sized Game, in my .270 !
I was kneeling, using Stix, shooting over Sage brush ( different bull, here in Idaho ) and the 140 gr. Berger Classic Hunter @ 3,185 FPS went thru, BOTH Shoulders, all the Meat in between and "scrambled" his insides, we found, the Base of the Bullet caught in the Hair, after passing thru, the far side, shoulder and Hide.
There was, very little, "Bloodshot" Meat and, the 6-7 Bullet "Pieces" stayed IN, the Diaphram area.
When, I pulled the Trigger,.. Hooves in Air !
Rihan, knows, his Bullets and, I AIN'T, changing Bullets now, after seeing several, Berger,.. "Performance's" !
Everybody, needs to, "Test" their Bullets and decide, what's Best for, THEMSELVES,.. Just my 2 cents and,.. Merry Christmas,.. ALL
Then, Rihan ( Bigngreen ) said,.. "Try, some 140 grain, Berger's",. I did and NOW, I won't use, anything else for, Moose & Elk, sized Game, in my .270 !
I was kneeling, using Stix, shooting over Sage brush ( different bull, here in Idaho ) and the 140 gr. Berger Classic Hunter @ 3,185 FPS went thru, BOTH Shoulders, all the Meat in between and "scrambled" his insides, we found, the Base of the Bullet caught in the Hair, after passing thru, the far side, shoulder and Hide.
There was, very little, "Bloodshot" Meat and, the 6-7 Bullet "Pieces" stayed IN, the Diaphram area.
When, I pulled the Trigger,.. Hooves in Air !
Rihan, knows, his Bullets and, I AIN'T, changing Bullets now, after seeing several, Berger,.. "Performance's" !
Everybody, needs to, "Test" their Bullets and decide, what's Best for, THEMSELVES,.. Just my 2 cents and,.. Merry Christmas,.. ALL
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bigngreen
Well-Known Member
Here the issue with penciling and plugged tips, I've tried to make a normal Berger pulled out of the box and found with a shallow hole and shot it into an elk, repeatedly and never had one not open normally. Many years ago, before closed tips became a thing no one sorted and had 100% success. The very first bit of info that came to my knowledge about the plugged tip was when we ran a comparison of the nose cavity depth between a bunch of OTM type bullets. After talking with some manufacturers it was narrowed down to the punch pin catching some material from the nose. One of my favorite bullets, more consistent than the Berger but the same jacket had a super small meplat and was lead to the tip, essentially plugged and it opened so beautiful and consistent out to 1000 on elk it was epic.
The most I've ever done is maybe blow on some tips and make sure they whistle, in hundreds of animals 95% have been unsorted, my dad has to customize each bullet, trim, drill, cone and we have the same success rate.
I have not seen proof that some material in the nose stopped expansion cold at a rate you can point and say found it. Is it a suspect, sure, right up there with banging in the mag or being dropped, hang nail meplats, it's something we can explain some occasional pencil.
Blowing up is a whole other dynamic, this there is some pretty solid testing done to the point I'd say if you blow one up the jacket was stressed for some reason, we've been able to actually test and predict the out come.
Then you sometimes just have weird crap happen, I can accept a percentage of that but if some things is consistent as what has been presented by some it should be no issue to duplicate if it's a design or QC issue not an issue in another interacting component like a barrel bore. I've been able to to exactly that with a number of bullets to help advance the design or just drop them off my list, I started out very antagonistic with Bergers, it took a LOT of consistence over two years of high volume killing for me to carry just them and not also have a backup loaded and ready!
I've gone so far as to load the Berger varmint bullets in to 22-250's at 3500 fps and go shoot deer and antelope from 65 yards out to 600+, the closer hit was right through the center of an antelope bucks shoulder, it was the only one out of 20+ animals to not exit but it made the far side. I've put 140's through bulls shoulders, a friend reamed an Alaskan bull moose from the front and we found the bullet back in the flank. I've seen a lot of Berger 300 gr bullets plow though elk, we have never caught one, tried to pencil them, 1200 yards on antelope, they opened.
There are just some guys I think that shouldn't shoot some bullets at some animals, I can't explain it, maybe it's something in their process or just dumb luck but when you have a HUGE body of evidence to the contrary it maybe a personal issue. I have a personal issue with some bullets, I think it's just my placement or terrain and maybe I just won't align my process to make them shine. That's OK, plenty of bullets out there for everyone. I don't shoot a lot of Bergers because they fail me I shoot them because they are better than what I shot before, I'm usually really quick to test any new hunting bullet, if it does something the same or better than the bullet before I keep shooting it, don't care about brand just performance.
The most I've ever done is maybe blow on some tips and make sure they whistle, in hundreds of animals 95% have been unsorted, my dad has to customize each bullet, trim, drill, cone and we have the same success rate.
I have not seen proof that some material in the nose stopped expansion cold at a rate you can point and say found it. Is it a suspect, sure, right up there with banging in the mag or being dropped, hang nail meplats, it's something we can explain some occasional pencil.
Blowing up is a whole other dynamic, this there is some pretty solid testing done to the point I'd say if you blow one up the jacket was stressed for some reason, we've been able to actually test and predict the out come.
Then you sometimes just have weird crap happen, I can accept a percentage of that but if some things is consistent as what has been presented by some it should be no issue to duplicate if it's a design or QC issue not an issue in another interacting component like a barrel bore. I've been able to to exactly that with a number of bullets to help advance the design or just drop them off my list, I started out very antagonistic with Bergers, it took a LOT of consistence over two years of high volume killing for me to carry just them and not also have a backup loaded and ready!
I've gone so far as to load the Berger varmint bullets in to 22-250's at 3500 fps and go shoot deer and antelope from 65 yards out to 600+, the closer hit was right through the center of an antelope bucks shoulder, it was the only one out of 20+ animals to not exit but it made the far side. I've put 140's through bulls shoulders, a friend reamed an Alaskan bull moose from the front and we found the bullet back in the flank. I've seen a lot of Berger 300 gr bullets plow though elk, we have never caught one, tried to pencil them, 1200 yards on antelope, they opened.
There are just some guys I think that shouldn't shoot some bullets at some animals, I can't explain it, maybe it's something in their process or just dumb luck but when you have a HUGE body of evidence to the contrary it maybe a personal issue. I have a personal issue with some bullets, I think it's just my placement or terrain and maybe I just won't align my process to make them shine. That's OK, plenty of bullets out there for everyone. I don't shoot a lot of Bergers because they fail me I shoot them because they are better than what I shot before, I'm usually really quick to test any new hunting bullet, if it does something the same or better than the bullet before I keep shooting it, don't care about brand just performance.
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