Berger VLD pencil through Elk in Cold?

[Texis]

VLD and hybrid (classic hunter) are different animals all together. I've taken deer with both. VLDs tend to explode, Hybrids open and exit. Just my experience.
I've had no blood trails with VLDs, typically plenty of blood with hybrids.

 

[Eagleye242]

After very poor performance on 6 head of Game, my close friend has sworn off
Bergers of any flavor. One made a nasty "splash" surface wound on a bull elk, and
we needed a Partition to put this bull down properly. Others were all pencil through
No blood trail. Long, unsuccessful tracking done. Very peeved hunter.
With so many real Hunting bullets to choose from....why use Berger? Dave.

 

[codyadams]

Long, unsuccessful tracking done.

Sooo.....some animals were never found?

 

[PApa Black]

I've now had two experiences in cold temps (around 5 degrees Fahrenheit) where I believe a Berger VLD Hunting bullet (7mm 180gr) appears to have penciled through an elk.

First occasion: Last year, a mature cow through one shoulder, out the other armpit. I did recover this cow, and verified this. I was so cold and tired I didn't take a picture, but it was for sure a pencil through because there was no meat damage surrounding the entrance and exit. 320 yards.

Second occasion: This year, a mature bull I never recovered, but watched (and heard the tell tale sound) armpit impact maybe 3-4" above heart, perfectly broadside, at 294 yards. No blood anywhere to be found within 1/2 mile radius in fresh white snow.

I load these rounds myself, and have been doing so for long enough to know for certain they are going the correct velocity out of the muzzle. Both of these bullets were going ~2940 out of the muzzle, +or- 30fpm at worst, though both of them were from load developments that were averaging 15-20fpm extreme spreads. I cannot remember the last time I saw an ES greater than 40fpm. This isn't a velocity issue.

I have killed 5 elk, 2 antelope, and 4 deer, 1 bear with these same exact loads, but all in warmer temps bottoming out around 15 degrees. Every other one has expanded correctly, devastatingly.

I do visually check each bullet to make sure that visually there are no obstructions prior to loading my magazine, but I do leave them in the magazine for up to a few days at a time, and I don't run a drill bit like I know some people do.

1. Has anyone else personally experienced this in cold temps with the VLD H's?
2. Maybe with all the hiking around, I'm getting some snow or ice in the tips of the bullet? Could that prevent expansion?
3. I know some people have had tips close on bullets in a magazine, but these are the first bullets out of the magazine.

I'm thinking of switching to the 175gr Elite Hunters, as I'm guessing the thinner ogive and larger cavity in the tip would give tip these over the edge to expand properly in the cold. But I've also used these VLD Hunts for a few years and I love them, and have successfully killed a lot of other animals with them. I love the terminal performance when they expand.

if the hole in the tip is plugged or damaged it will pencil hole.

 

[ENGUNEER]

Every Berger bullet I've ever used (limited to 7mm and 30 cal hybrids, EOL's and VLD-H's) have completely destroyed the internals of all the animals I have shot with them. And, I have shot animals at ranges from 30 yards to 1050 yards and in weather from -22F to 90F. All of them have been DRT except for a couple that ran 30-50 yards before expiring. And, in addition, I have had several guides that recommended Bergers for their hunts.

 

[Flatbow]

Just wondering…. Has anyone ever used tip cleaners for a cutting torch to clean the tips of Berger's? The pack comes with probably 10 or 15 different sizes, and has groves to clean the copper tip of cutting torches. Also the pack is small enough to put in a day pack. Just a thought.View attachment 409457

Yes I use the tip cleaners on all my burgers I load and probably have about 60% that are not as open as they should be with NO VISUAL SIGNS of not being open.
I was very surprised at how many were plugged.
Many of them taking a good amount of work (considering the job at hand) to open up.
Have not had any problems since.
Also, unless op's rifle has a faster than 9 1/2" twist those 180 are on the edge of not being stable at those velocity's .
With my 7 RUM with 9 1/2 twist I did not get good stability until over 3000 at muzzle.
Just a thought. The lighter bullet may stabilize better .

 

[BillLarson]

VLD and hybrid (classic hunter) are different animals all together. I've taken deer with both. VLDs tend to explode, Hybrids open and exit. Just my experience.
I've had no blood trails with VLDs, typically plenty of blood with hybrids.

Years ago when Berger was just a 1 type bullet per caliber.... Walt let his son in law kinda take over....with thinner jackets...no hunting line.... but with plastic tips.....
They (180`s) shot good outa my 300.... so I went elk hunt n..... shot a cow.... it went 20 yds... good blood trail....next year I shot a 5x5... running..... it dropped at the 1st. shot,was still kick n so I gave it another.....
Then someone told me I was`nt supposed to use them for hunting......?????

 

[meatyrem]

These are the VLD Hunts -- which are specifically for hunting. On berger's site they say they've thinned the metal at the tip to allow for better expansion.

I'd guess (I'm no expert) but the cold temps maybe preventing the lead expanding. I know certain things that are soft in warmer temps but harden up in much colder temps. Other than that maybe like you said the top may be forming ice closing in the top preventing expansion

 

[Hard rock]

I'd guess (I'm no expert) but the cold temps maybe preventing the lead expanding. I know certain things that are soft in warmer temps but harden up in much colder temps. Other than that maybe like you said the top may be forming ice closing in the top preventing expansion

In response too the entire thread , my question would be ,without cleaning the tips , would you shoot a BULL ELK at 50 yds broadside , directly through the shoulders, only shot presented ,small window of opportunity with a BERGER 140 class bullet, at 3500 fps.BULLETS right out of the box. Cold temps. Or not, Now at the moment of truth you suddenly had a option, you had a mono as a second round in the mag , which would you use.

 

[BillLarson]

In response too the entire thread , my question would be ,without cleaning the tips , would you shoot a BULL ELK at 50 yds broadside , directly through the shoulders, only shot presented ,small window of opportunity with a BERGER 140 class bullet, at 3500 fps.BULLETS right out of the box. Cold temps. Or not, Now at the moment of truth you suddenly had a option, you had a mono as a second round in the mag , which would you use.

YES......
I`ve shot 2 elk,many whitetail with berger 180gr. tipped bullets......

 

[RockyMtnUT]

In response too the entire thread , my question would be ,without cleaning the tips , would you shoot a BULL ELK at 50 yds broadside , directly through the shoulders, only shot presented ,small window of opportunity with a BERGER 140 class bullet, at 3500 fps.BULLETS right out of the box. Cold temps. Or not, Now at the moment of truth you suddenly had an option, you had a mono as a second round in the mag , which would you use.

Yes, I'd shoot the Berger. Then Yes, I would use the Barnes mono without question to fill my cow tag also.

 

[FEENIX]

YES......

DITTO!

 

[Pdvdh]

In response too the entire thread , my question would be ,without cleaning the tips , would you shoot a BULL ELK at 50 yds broadside , directly through the shoulders, only shot presented ,small window of opportunity with a BERGER 140 class bullet, at 3500 fps.BULLETS right out of the box. Cold temps. Or not, Now at the moment of truth you suddenly had a option, you had a mono as a second round in the mag , which would you use.

Wouldn't have a Burger in the chamber, or in my possession, in the first place.

 

[blackbrush1]

I quit using Bergers after shooting a few tiny Texas whitetails in the neck with poor results. They pencil by design I believe for the first few inches and in my case exited before expansion could occur. I had downed but not dead deer that required unnecessary followup. I want a bullet that does almost anything reasonable I ask of it with LR precision included for most of my rifles.

There are Berger and Hammer and Nosler and......all other flavors of supporters. I've been on the Scenar train for a long time now and have been pleased.

Deceased via Scenar bullet pix please..

Tons of white, long winter and the Scenars that Scenar turned me onto are perking well in my lil 300 WSM. So, please post up pics of your victums via flight Scenar and help me relax a bit during this long butt winter. Gracias Perro

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