Berger VLD pencil through Elk in Cold?

[Calvin45]

I have a close friend who almost got terminated because of a Berger "Splash Wound" on a Grizzly Bear
Fortunately, his backup was carrying a 338 with 250 Partitions up the spout, which persuaded the
****ed off beast to die.
Some people have had good success with Bergers, but I have decided that there are many better
"Hunting" designs available. I shoot Berger in competition, not in the game field. Dave.

To fair I don't think berger themselves really market their bullets as dangerous game stoppers. Pick the appropriately constructed bullet for the game!

For light stuff at range my .257 wby with 100 grain Nosler b tips is awesome. If I were going after a grizzly it'd be my .358 Norma with a 280 swift a frame. I wouldn't say the Nosler failed if I used it to try stopping a grizzly bear!

 

[codyadams]

No issues expanding on this one. 208 LRHT @ 2935 (the tipped one, and I didn't modify the tip), no bone hit on impact, between ribs, entered behind shoulder, exited on the front of the off shoulder. Didn't hit any bone until the exit. 18° when I shot her, at 590 yards. Dropped in her tracks and didn't flinch.

exit -

For the last 5 or so years, we have averaged around 20 pronghorn, 4-8 mule deer, and 6-8 elk per season in my family, probably 80% of that with Bergers, though in the last two years we have transitioned a few of our rifles over to monos of some flavor. Maybe 10% of those were shot below freezing temps. The bergers we have used have been .338 300 elites, 30 cal 215's, now the 30 cal 208 lrht, 7mm 180 vld, 168 vld, .270 170 elite, 6.5 156 elite, 140 vld, and 140 hybrid. So, bare minimum, about 100 critters we have taken in the last 5 years with Bergers? To be fair, the average range with all those is around 600-700 yards, and the highest muzzle velocity any of our guns have had was my dad's .264 win mag with the 156 at 3080, so no astronomical speed, and at the ranges, impacts were even lower velocity, and the vast majority have been pronghorn.

With all those, I haven't seen a single bullet pencil through, a single splash wound, never failed to have an exit on pronghorn, elk and mule deer were probably 65% exit, and everything we have shot was either dead in it's tracks or very close. I believe one heart shot pronghorn made it about 75 yards, but that is about the farthest anything ever went, most much less.

The downside is if heavy bone is hit, there is usually significant blood shot, and closer range impacts can be flat violent. Compared to the PVA cayugas and Badlands bullets, even with similar impacts, bergers do more meat damage. However I prefer them on smaller game like pronghorn in my .260ai. I used my 30 nosler this year, and it was overly violent on a close range impact. I'll use my .260ai on them from now on ha ha.

Not discrediting anyone else's experiences in any way, all I can do is speak to my own, which I base on animals I shoot, recover, and butcher myself. I don't take any animals to a butcher, I do all of it at my home, so I see exactly what my bullets do. Thankfully I have never lost an animal, but anyone that doesn't recover an animal, and tries to make assessments on terminal performance, has zero ground to stand on. Same thing goes for those that make poor shots and try to say how a bullet failed. That goes for any bullets, not just bergers.

I'm not sure what's up with those that have seen pencil wounds, splash wounds, or other issues, I wasn't there and didn't dissect the animal, I wish I did know. But based on my own personal experiences and observations of 100+ animals in my specific circumstances, I can't really say a whole lot bad about them. They are accurate, kill well, and have a good bc. So do badlands and pva cayugas from my experience though....just gotta use what you think is best.

 

[Pdvdh]

To fair I don't think berger themselves really market their bullets as dangerous game stoppers. Pick the appropriately constructed bullet for the game!

For light stuff at range my .257 wby with 100 grain Nosler b tips is awesome. If I were going after a grizzly it'd be my .358 Norma with a 280 swift a frame. I wouldn't say the Nosler failed if I used it to try stopping a grizzly bear!

Burger doesn't market their bullets for any particular varmint or animal. Not that I've ever seen. Trembling fear... might lose the sale of a box of bullets. And Burger has never acknowledged that closed tips can lead to pencil thru, FMJ performance. Despite every other bullet manufacturer acknowledging that the smaller the opening in the tip of the jacket, the greater the risk of FMJ performance. Trembling again... don't risk a loss in sales revenue.

The user should sort out those bullet limitations and hazards thru trial and error use? Without manufacturer input? Maybe so. Maybe not.

 

[Calvin45]

Burger doesn't market their bullets for any particular varmint or animal. Not that I've ever seen. Trembling fear... might lose the sale of a box of bullets. And Burger has never acknowledged that closed tips can lead to pencil thru, FMJ performance. Despite every other bullet manufacturer acknowledging that the smaller the opening in the tip of the jacket, the greater the risk of FMJ performance. Trembling again... don't risk a loss in sales revenue.

The user should sort out those bullet limitations and hazards thru trial and error use? Without manufacturer input? Maybe so. Maybe not.

Fair enough. They totally do have "hunting" "target" and "varmint" Product lines explicitly labeled as such tho so I'm not quite sure what your basing this off of.

 

[WeiserBucks]

Burger doesn't market their bullets for any particular varmint or animal. Not that I've ever seen. Trembling fear... might lose the sale of a box of bullets. And Burger has never acknowledged that closed tips can lead to pencil thru, FMJ performance. Despite every other bullet manufacturer acknowledging that the smaller the opening in the tip of the jacket, the greater the risk of FMJ performance. Trembling again... don't risk a loss in sales revenue.

The user should sort out those bullet limitations and hazards thru trial and error use? Without manufacturer input? Maybe so. Maybe not.

Every manufacturer is the best, just read their advertising. Or, use your brain and pick the right tool for the job.

 

[Pdvdh]

I think most Burger bullets expand. Otherwise they wouldn't enjoy widespread use.
And most Burgers I've meplat uniformed and hollow-pointed don't have closed tips. So the correlation is almost certainly closed tips, much higher risk of FMJ performance. I had one 300gr 338 OTM with the jacket tip so completely closed that a drill bit exited the side of the bullet rather than follow any cavity and open up the jacket tip. I then took a grinder to that bullet tip and it was solid copper for the first 3/16" depth. It likely met every in house QA/QC tolerance. Because Burger has no QA/QC tolerances on interior bullet dimensions, by their own statements.

As for bullet splashes, they don't really come as any surprise, after seeing the lack of jacket thickness.

 

[Pdvdh]

Or, use your brain and pick the right tool for the job.

Likewise.

 

[WeiserBucks]

Likewise.

I've killed dozens of critters, mostly elk, with Bergers without a single failure. What would you suggest I switch to for deer/elk/black bear?

 

[Pdvdh]

They totally do have "hunting" "target" and "varmint" Product lines explicitly labeled as such tho so I'm not quite sure what your basing this off of.

What's a Varmint bullet? Chipmunk, field rat, or feral hog?
What's a hunting bullet? Cottontail rabbit or Alaskan moose?

The first several years Burger promoted their bullets for hunting, they were all target bullets.

Lastly, the pencil thru's on bear and elk and other big game? Posters saying they were using Burger varmint bullets? Not really.

 

[Pdvdh]

I've killed dozens of critters, mostly elk, with Bergers without a single failure. What would you suggest I switch to for deer/elk/black bear?

Easy peasy.

"Or, use your brain and pick the right tool for the job."

 

[WeiserBucks]

Easy peasy.

"Or, use your brain and pick the right tool for the job."

It's pretty clear that you don't care for Bergers. Seriously, what do you recommend to replace them for deer/elk/black bear?

 

[Calvin45]

What's a Varmint bullet? Chipmunk, field rat, or feral hog?
What's a hunting bullet? Cottontail rabbit or Alaskan moose?

The first several years Burger promoted their bullets for hunting, they were all target bullets.

Lastly, the pencil thru's on bear and elk and other big game? Posters saying they were using Burger varmint bullets? Not really.

You need further clarification for varmints? Should the manufacturer hold your hand and walk you out to their prescribed hunting spot too?

 

[Calvin45]

I'm actually not a huge fan of bergers of any kind either but this is getting ridiculous

 

[Pdvdh]

It's pretty clear that you don't care for Bergers. Seriously, what do you recommend to replace them for deer/elk/black bear?

Had a 210gr VLD 308 Burger fired from a 300 Win Mag at 12 yards fail to exit a wounded, small black bear. The wound cavity was wider than depth. As already mentioned, had that same bullet pencil thru a dall ram at ~310 yds, in and out ribs. Ram jumped and looked around for several minutes trying to figure out what gives? You didn't ask, but that's one I'd avoid.

Won't pretend to tell you what to use.

I can tell you what I've used the past 6 years with complete satisfaction. Lathe-turned copper monolithics for the large game I hunt and shoot at longer ranges. Blacktail deer, Kodiak brown bear, grizzly bear, caribou, Mt. goat, dall ram, and my son... moose.

When my Burgers performed as intended, they were meat shredders if the bullet hit, or came close to, muscle. Even at 750yds after bullet impact velocity had diminished. Didn't care for that so I commited to moving on. Some are tickled pink with that performance. Burgers great for that.

Closer range bullets I now carry in the magazine for bear and camp defense are Trophy Bonded Bear Claws and Swift A-Frames. Will also sometimes use these "bear defense" bullets for closer range shots on game animals, when a higher BC bullet isn't of much benefit.