Berger HUNTING Bullets

[mikebob]

about 5 or so years ago there was a guy here (Jim) who could not get his bullets to shoot well out of a 264, he called berger and they got him to walt. walt was flying to somewhere do not remember where, but he change his flight next air port and came here to teach him how to load thevld bullets. i was upset got stuck fixing a drilling rig and didnt get to meet him but alot of people here did. if you are having these problems im sure berger will investigate the cause. i have never had a problem with berger bullets but if i did i would be on the horn with them to find the cause so doesnt happen again. it is very strange that they perform great for some and so bad for others. i think those of you having problems should pull together with a list of the problems and contact berger, im sure they would be glad to help you find the cause. there are to many incidents in this one thread for berger to ignore them. i havent had any problems with the bullets i shoot but i would like to know the bullets other people are so i could avoid them until problem is cured. im not very good with spread sheets or i would do a list but i bet there is someone on this thread or forum that knows how and would be happy to do so.

I shoot the 175 hunting vld in 308 no shots on deer past 750 no problems

210 hunting vld in 300WM farthest is coyotes 1444 closest on deer 125 no problem

90gr vld 22-243 farthest coyote 1325 no problems cosest 10 feet no problem

 

[MMERSS]

Technology keeps advancing our capabilities and as a society our demands keep increasing.

This may be true however, what has not changed with time is Mother Nature. There is still only so much blood in a given turnip yet some want more than what that one turnip has to offer. In my opinion, one piece of technology that assists with determining "how much blood" is in the turnip is a hit probability analyzer. Articles on actual live fire data compared to the analyzer and how to use this information made available to different forums would certainly help.

 

[No Fear in Accuracy]

I've been using Berger 105gr Hybrid Target Match at Precision Shooting matches and target practice.
My caliber is 6BR, shooting at 2930fps at the muzzle.

I decided to use this rifle for deer hunting and I shot a young buck at 166 meters.
At first, I shot the buck at quarter side on the left side. The buck was standing still and his head was lower for a moment after the shot.
I wondered myself why did he run away or did I completely miss the shot? (I know myself it is impossible).
After 10 seconds later, he is still standing with his head down, it was a bit dark outside and I thought he must be eating corn on the field while ignoring the shot.
Saw other deer looked at him constantly. I thought he must be hurt so I took another shot and he fell down.

Walked toward to dead deer and saw his nose bleed all over. Must be lung shot. Cut it open and saw two tiny holes on both ribs and no blood coming out from the outside ribs. I did patted on it and no blood on my hand.

I chose Hybrid over VLD due to thickness so I thought it will expand nicely, instead of blew up the piece of VLD (thin jacket).
Maybe I should stick Hybrid for target shooting and use VLD for hunting?

Hope these images help you why it didn't expand. As you may see the third image, it did hit one of the rib and exit to other side in the pencil hole. Not the other way around.

 

[Pdvdh]

Pic #2 is exit and Pic #3 (lowest pic) is entrance?

 

[SidecarFlip]

Got to meet Walt Berger last summer at an invitational near Canton, Ohio. Helluva shot (for an old (coot). Won the match.

 

[No Fear in Accuracy]

Pic #2 is exit and Pic #3 (lowest pic) is entrance?

That is correct. I shot the buck on the left side of his body. Then he turned sideway slightly. Shot again.

 

[bigngreen]

That is correct. I shot the buck on the left side of his body. Then he turned sideway slightly. Shot again.

The 105 hybrid has some history of not opening aggressively, you can see the bullets likely were open a little but lacked the velocity for that hit to open much at all. Some seem to be under the impression that Bergers just blow up like a v max or something like that, they do a slow burnband even very hard hits on heavy game I have not seen one blow up.
A buddy shoots the 105 VLD from a 243 and they'll go through the shoulders and spine of a bull elk at close range and I've seen a few whitetail he's taken and there exiting on heavy quartering shots, a thicker jacket is not needed.

 

[Pdvdh]

That is correct. I shot the buck on the left side of his body. Then he turned sideway slightly. Shot again.

I think one of the bullets, at least, opened a little. Or perhaps the one that hit the rib blew some rib into the lungs. Too much blood from the nose/mouth of the deer for a simple pencil thru, based on my experience with a dall sheep that showed no blood on its nose mouth 20 minutes after a 150gr .284 Nosler Ballistic Tip passed broadside thru both lungs from a distance of 12 yds. The ram jumped up to his feet as I approached after 20 minutes and began its effort to charge off. He was weakened, but no blood coming from the mouth/nose. I also think that those exit wounds may be a bit larger than I'd expect from a non-expanded bullet - just looking at the photos.

 

[Pdvdh]

Some seem to be under the impression that Bergers just blow up like a v max or something like that, they do a slow burnband even very hard hits on heavy game I have not seen one blow up.

Never say never. A member we both know and have talked to related his experience to me of shooting an antelope with his .338. I purposely avoid identifying the cartridge, but the cartridge has a large capacity. His 300gr Berger OTM hit the antelope, broadside profile, in the shoulder and the bullet never penetrated to the lung cavity. Antelope was still alive when he walked up to it and he had to shoot it again to kill it. That's the most extreme, reliably documented incident of a frangible bullet exploding on impact I've heard to date. It wasn't even a buck antelope. I've had a 210gr VLD dust within 9" on a medium size black bear 20 feet off the muzzle. That didn't terribly surprise me due to the high impacting velocity just off the muzzle. But how 300 grains of copper-sheathed lead can disappear in such a shallow wound on the side of a doe antelope's shoulder goes well beyond my imagination and expectation. I wouldn't have believed this if it didn't come from a member I've come to know over the past 6 years. He's well informed. Meticulous preparation for his long range hunting encounters. Quality equipment all the way around. He has a LOT of hunting experience over many years afield.

This experience convinces me more than ever of the wisdom of my practice of loading controlled expansion bullets for close range shots on large, dangerous game/predators. If an itsy bitsy doe antelope can shake off a 300gr OTM, imagine what's possible from an animal packing 10 or more times that weight.

 

[TXAoudadKlr]

That's bizzar, I can't imagine such a large bullet completely turning to dust on such a soft target and failing to even make it into the chest cavity

 

[bigngreen]

Never say never. A member we both know and have talked to related his experience to me of shooting an antelope with his .338. I purposely avoid identifying the cartridge, but the cartridge has a large capacity. His 300gr Berger OTM hit the antelope, broadside profile, in the shoulder and the bullet never penetrated to the lung cavity. Antelope was still alive when he walked up to it and he had to shoot it again to kill it. That's the most extreme, reliably documented incident of a frangible bullet exploding on impact I've heard to date. It wasn't even a buck antelope. I've had a 210gr VLD dust within 9" on a medium size black bear 20 feet off the muzzle. That didn't terribly surprise me due to the high impacting velocity just off the muzzle. But how 300 grains of copper-sheathed lead can disappear in such a shallow wound on the side of a doe antelope's shoulder goes well beyond my imagination and expectation. I wouldn't have believed this if it didn't come from a member I've come to know over the past 6 years. He's well informed. Meticulous preparation for his long range hunting encounters. Quality equipment all the way around. He has a LOT of hunting experience over many years afield.

This experience convinces me more than ever of the wisdom of my practice of loading controlled expansion bullets for close range shots on large, dangerous game/predators. If an itsy bitsy doe antelope can shake off a 300gr OTM, imagine what's possible from an animal packing 10 or more times that weight.

I was helping cull cow elk and I called range for a co worker, 80 yards 180 Accubond did not make it through an elk shoulder, I ranged and dialed as she hobbled out of his range till she stopped and turned at 625 and I put a 140 Berger though her chest and she just fell on her nose.
I shot a cow at moderate range with a 300 WBY with a TSX and it failed to penetrate, a close range hit from a 30-06 with a 165 TSX failed to penetrate with in a half hour of mine.
A high end elk guide I know won't touch a 200 gr Accubond after having them suck.
If there was a bullet that performed flawless every single shot and every single person and shot placement that would make this whole thing a whole lot easier and they'd be killing it cause we'd all be running them but just looking at the market place seems to prove that we need options. I can say they've worked flawless for me cause they have, far better than controlled expansion bullets but that does not invalidate someone who has the exact opposite, if a guy has issues with a bullet that I don't I don't really care beyond I want to know as much about it as I can so I have that knowledge as well.

 

[Pdvdh]

But a doe antelope??? That's a chipmunk compared to an elk.

 

[SHRTSHTR]

Sorry for a late reply, busy weekend and football Sunday.

Well, I have never shared this publicly before tonight. I'm the guy that shot a doe Antelope and the bullet never entered the vitals that I could see. Before I explain I need to back up a little.

When Berger came out with the 300g Berger I bought 250 of them. Shortly after we heard about the slump nose problem, so I did not shoot them. They are still in my cabinet as a matter of fact. A little while later they came out with the OTM's and I purchased 250. Don't remember what year that was?

In 2014 I used them exclusively that year. The Doe was 800+yards out. Wind was full value 8-10mph. When I shot the doe went straight down. My 12 yearold grandson and I drove my utv up to what we thought was dead animal. When I pulled up next to it she picked up her head. When I got out to finish it, she tried to get up and run but could not. She actually made it 1/2 way into my ranger then fell out. I could not believe what I was seeing and all this in front of my grandson!

When I gutted it, I was looking for damage to the vitals and could not find any damage at all! The bullet hit her square in the shoulder. Yea, yea I know! I was aiming for crease but was off about 3" hitting shoulder squarely. When we skinned it, looked like bomb went off on entrance side. It was blood shot badly all the up to head. Don't think we saved any meat from that front quarter. Opposite side was perfectly fine?

I still do not know what happened nor am I worried about it. In 2014 I shot 4 Antelope, cow Elk and 12 Whitetail. Had several Whitetail that bullet just penciled through and they ran quite a little bit.
Started hearing about people saying tips were sometimes found blocked. I starting checking what I had left of that first lot of 250 ct. I was a little surprised to see that a lot of them did indeed have blocked holes.
Late 2014, early 2015 I purchased 750 more 300g OTM's. To my surprise, the meplats and holes looked great! Literally had a handful of bullets with blocked tips.
2015 hunting season has been great. 3 Antelope, 6x5 Bull Elk andso far 4 Whitetail. All one shot kills and all were dead before they hit the ground.
Okay, long winded I know but I truly believe Berger makes the best long range 300g bullet out there. I also think that the 300g SMK is a very close second. The only bullets in my reloading room are Bergers and Sierra's.
Seems to me if the holes are unobstructed the bullets should perform as advertised. I did not figure this out, people on this forum and others did. So thank you!

Ray

 

[sp6x6]

Wow what a long thread. Ive been mostly hunting with no success in NW MT since wolf hit.I also look for mature animals, didnt even see a branched bull in rifle.Taken alot of 6pts over the years.Ive shot the 300 otm since 2010. I have typically shot larger caliber as main elk hunter.340 wby then 338 NM,two that I and friends use. I have shot at least 20 elk with partitions,teacher I had in school shot elk with mainly them for ever.He shot elk since 12 every year into his 60's.Ive shot speed goats,deer,bear and elk and moose with the otms with devastating results almost on the side of gory,like too much.I have not recovered a bullet only pieces.Concerned hearing the failures in the 388 size.Which will lead me to pack some 300 NAB's in my pouch.As Phorwarth I packed a different bullet when using my lighter rifles like 325 wsm and 257 wby.Dont have any real long shots on the game past 900 to test in that regard.But shot bull elk and moose point blank in thicket under 50 yrds.I expected to roll them as I have knocked alot of game off it feet with my 340 well out to 600 yrds.But the exits where large and blood trail unreal. I agree there is no perfect bullet,one reason I favor the 338's,I shot a 6pt.going awy from me with 340 w/partition,threw edge of rear quarter and stopped at hide in front shoulder. Ive shot all the bullets over the years,still have some grand slams loaded for 7RM.Did get my kid in on buck of a lifetime on opener he took him at 500+ with my 338 NM and a 300 otm.