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Berger Fail on elk
- Thread starter Tikkamike
- Start date
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Broz
Well-Known Member
Mike, way to save the day with your follow up shot. Nice job. I have never used a 30 cal 180 Berger so I can not comment on it. I did use some 190's once a long time ago in the 300 wby. But switched to 210's and never took anything larger than deer with the 190. They left huge exits when placed in the ribs and what I expected from a 300 wby at these velocities. Any of us that have hunted enough have seen "failures" from many different bullet brands. Weather it was actually the bullet or was from not so good of placement for the type of bullet used. My worst two were the same season from Barnes 7mm 168 TSX in two different bulls under 300 yards. We recovered one exactly 4.7 miles on my gps from where he was shot. Right before dark and it was starting to snow. He had lost a lot of blood but was still alive. Luckly we put him down with a shot in the neck as he was bedded facing us. The first bullet left a 7mm cal sized hole in and out getting both lungs. But we all know that will not anchor a bull wanting to flee with the herd. Small holes in lungs just don't cut it. If we would have hit shoulder bone it might have been different.
The other we didn't recover at all. lost the track in the herd tracks he left with. I can only assume the same problem but can not be sure. So who knows? But these were only two of the problems I had with "controlled expansion" bullets and the reasons I switched to fragmenting bullets.
I have never seen what you described with so little penetration. I am not doubting you but would sure like to have seen that wound with my own eyes. With 100's of Berger kills I just have not seen it.
In the end we all have to use what we like and have confidence in. For me it is a fragmenting bullet that will still expand if I opt to or have to take the long poke.
But I agree, I would never have recommended that bullet for your friend if he only shoots up close. A 210, 215 or 230 for elk Yes. I 180 no unless it was in a 7mm.
I think sometimes one should pay more attention to sectional density that Velocity when choosing a bullet. It seems to me of these two the SD is by far a bigger friend. Especially with fragmenting bullets. But probably also with "controlled expansion" bullets that don't hit bone. But that is just my opinion from what I see year after year.
Thanks for your report.
Jeff
The other we didn't recover at all. lost the track in the herd tracks he left with. I can only assume the same problem but can not be sure. So who knows? But these were only two of the problems I had with "controlled expansion" bullets and the reasons I switched to fragmenting bullets.
I have never seen what you described with so little penetration. I am not doubting you but would sure like to have seen that wound with my own eyes. With 100's of Berger kills I just have not seen it.
In the end we all have to use what we like and have confidence in. For me it is a fragmenting bullet that will still expand if I opt to or have to take the long poke.
But I agree, I would never have recommended that bullet for your friend if he only shoots up close. A 210, 215 or 230 for elk Yes. I 180 no unless it was in a 7mm.
I think sometimes one should pay more attention to sectional density that Velocity when choosing a bullet. It seems to me of these two the SD is by far a bigger friend. Especially with fragmenting bullets. But probably also with "controlled expansion" bullets that don't hit bone. But that is just my opinion from what I see year after year.
Thanks for your report.
Jeff
Truc
Well-Known Member
We have two deer taken this yr with the Berger bullet and both were DRT. My wife shot a doe in the neck at about 150 yds with the 7 mm 180 VLD Hunting bullet out of a 7 SAUM and had a hole on the off side about 3" in Diameter and took off parts of its ear. The second was a deer I shot at around 200 yds. I have to say it was a bad shot and I was using a 260 Rem with a 130 Hunting VLD. Hit her just above the fish and she dropped and expired. with any other bullet I would have lost that deer because I missed the vitals completely, there was no sign of damage to her spine when I dressed her.
Message to this story let my wife shoot the deer, its her second neck shot...
Message to this story let my wife shoot the deer, its her second neck shot...
Tikkamike
Well-Known Member
Tikkamike
Well-Known Member
I wont be answering that question. but if that is an attack on our hunting method you obviously have very little or no experience with elk...if I took that the wrong way I appologize
Dr. Vette
Well-Known Member
Definitely a case of "a picture is worth a thousand words."
If you happen to have a photo of it, Mike, I think we'd all like to see it.
Thanks.
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
I'd make dang sure my buddy had elk meat in the freezer, he put the first shot that could/should be lethal on the elk and it was down what kind of person would let that elk leave the scene without putting it down even if it was a buddies!!!
Tikkamike
Well-Known Member
It didnt really cross my mind to take a picture of it. sorry..just picture a big non-lethal flesh wound
Truc
Well-Known Member
Lets try filet, not the loin
The only time I had your issue was when I used a 200 Rem round nose out of my 350 mag, buck looked like he'd been shot with a golf ball, niece had to finished him off with a 270
Tikkamike
Well-Known Member
My thoughts exactly
So far for me, I've had 100% success with Berger bullets on deer and bear. But if and when the time comes and I lose an animal or become unsatisfied with a hunt outcome due to a Berger bullet, I will go back to other proven bullets.
The only bullet that has ever given me mixed results and losses is the accubond.
The only bullet that has ever given me mixed results and losses is the accubond.
Mike good job on the follow up.
I have had success and failures with the bergers. 300 rum with 210 on a 550 yard mule deer, lower shoulder ie heavy bone. Not where I wanted knowing the bergers limitations. Dropped right there, Never moved for 5 minutes, made a short walk to camp and came back to a "missing deer"
Another mule deer at 800+ with 7 rum 180 bergers, first shot again had the misfortune of hitting the shoulder knuckle. Thank God that deer stayed on it's feet so I followed it up with a correction that put the bullet on the high shoulder and toppled him.
both those hunts ended my use of those 2 particular rifle bullet combinations.
300 otms out of a 338 Lapua imp., much better results on 968 yard elk. first one on the heart, exit, expansion was ok, second one thru the classic high shoulder, great expansion 2-3" exit with a bang flop.
But that is the advantage of 300 grain pill, at least half of it should hold together, might change my mind next year if I am unlucky enough to have one land on the point of the shoulder. I may be knit picking not many bullets survive that hit very well, unless they are copper core.
I have had success and failures with the bergers. 300 rum with 210 on a 550 yard mule deer, lower shoulder ie heavy bone. Not where I wanted knowing the bergers limitations. Dropped right there, Never moved for 5 minutes, made a short walk to camp and came back to a "missing deer"
Another mule deer at 800+ with 7 rum 180 bergers, first shot again had the misfortune of hitting the shoulder knuckle. Thank God that deer stayed on it's feet so I followed it up with a correction that put the bullet on the high shoulder and toppled him.
both those hunts ended my use of those 2 particular rifle bullet combinations.
300 otms out of a 338 Lapua imp., much better results on 968 yard elk. first one on the heart, exit, expansion was ok, second one thru the classic high shoulder, great expansion 2-3" exit with a bang flop.
But that is the advantage of 300 grain pill, at least half of it should hold together, might change my mind next year if I am unlucky enough to have one land on the point of the shoulder. I may be knit picking not many bullets survive that hit very well, unless they are copper core.
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