Berger Fail on elk

[rick523]

Normally I Do Not respond to bullet failure post due to lack of experience with a rifle. Bow hunter for 40 years. Decided I wanted to try something else that I felt would be a challenge. I practiced for almost two years before I felt ready to take on a long range hunt. This past September I killed my first mulie 803 yd shot missed my poi by about 1-2" hit behind last rib bullet lodged in off side shoulder, insides were jell-o. I was shooting a 168vld in 7RM. Was it DRT nope in fact the only indication I hit it was it hunched up slightly, ( my spotter swore I missed). Before I could get a follow up shot off it walked into a small copse of trees. After glassing said trees for 4 hours went to check since I was sure of the shot. Buck was dead about 5 yds. in may have gone a total of 15 yds. from the shot. I didn't try a shoulder shot because of post like this I knew the capability of this bullet and where to place the shot. Am I gonna stop using bergers Hell No. Like anything else you need to use a tool for the job it was designed for in the manner it was designed. If it wasn't for this type of post how are we to learn what NOT to do. JMHO

 

[Freedom2live]

"Listen" No, you listen and try to learn.

"Claim" you say?

These folks are supporting their success with photos of their game and some with pics of terminal performance. can you open mindedly look at this lengthy thread and realize you are the exception not the norm?

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/lets-see-your-berger-kills-94959/

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Here is how I support my "claims" of how these Bullets work. 19 documented big game kills in the same season with the same rifle and Berger bullets. All with impact velocity, terminal performance photos, extensively supported with documented facts.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/comparing-berger-210-vld-215-hybrid-88657/

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Here are some more.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/berger-230-300-otm-hybrid-terminal-results-80283/

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Now can you understand why when you come on here with a rude mouth and extreme rude claims some will not buy in? or in your words "misunderstood me" Will you even read and look at these threads in an effort to learn? Probably not.

Bottom line is you shot one deer with a single Berger. The deer traveled 90 yards and was dead when you found it. You only supported your "claim" with rude comments, no pics or internal documentation. The owner and admin of this forum even edited your rude unsupported thread title and you complained about that. You had one single instance you deemed as "bad". Others could not understand what or why you were complaining about a deer that only traveled 90 yards before falling dead. What it traveled through has nothing to do with it. Many on here will agree that a deer to sprint 90 yards after the shot is very normal. Yet you want to **** and moan, take cheep shots and be rude. Which seems to be pretty normal for you.

One could say you indeed are the one that is "claiming" things. Especially with your negative attitude , unsupported remarks and foul mouth.

Some on here try to learn, help other learn and do it in a professional manner. A few only wish to create havoc.

As far as your "claim" I believe you. But for crying out loud get a grip. The deer died and died quickly. The bullet probably didn't get a rib going in or out. Did you look? Do you feel a mono metal or controlled expansion bullet would have done anything different under the same circumstances? Do you have pics so the ones of use with extensive documented experience with Bergers can help to diagnose what really happened? Do you even care? What exactly did it travel through only lungs? With your attitude I say you probably didn't even look because you were to eager to jump to conclusion because you seem to like to have things to complain about.

Other "folks Claims" my butt.

Jeff

Its funny how you use insults because you didnt like someone disagree on berger. ?

You must be a paid berger spokes man or really really fragile. Keep it up buddy, I can can for miles gun)

 

[Broz]

Its funny how you use insults because you didnt like someone disagree on berger. ?

You must be a paid berger spokes man or really really fragile. Keep it up buddy, I can can for miles gun)

I do not see my post as insults, that's your bag.

I post facts and support them. Kind of a neat concept some think, but I am sure you will not agree as you have no interest in learning, good or bad.

Nope just a real long range hunter here. Never received one cent from anyone for what I post. I only do it out of my passion for the sport and to help and learn. I have put quite a bit of time into it actually in an effort to share real experiences with other real long range hunters.

You do not even care about knowledge or experience. Only insults and more rude posts.

So is this the best meaningful input you have to add to the discussion? More unsupported insults?


Love,
Broz

 

[sbhooper]

First off, shoot what you want, as you are the one that has to live with the results.

The common thread that I see here, is people with bullet failures at ranges that are not ethical to start with. Why not hunt, instead of just SHOOT? I personally think Berger is just like Amax in that they are good for targets and that is it. That is my opinion and flame it if you want to.

As to the OP, I applaud anybody that does not let an animal leave the scene if they have the opportunity to stop it.

Keep the ranges reasonable and there will be far fewer threads on bullet failure on big animals, even if Bergers are the bullets used.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Listen, 90 in the thickest woods I have ever seen aint no joke. If it wasn't for the snow that buck would of rotted. Folks claim huge holes and jello organs, which neither were present. I sure aint the only one in my hunting network with that problem. These bullets are very over rated for hunting.

The more I explain myself, the people are determined to misunderstood me

I don't know about your experience and didn't read the thread, but sometimes deer and other critters will travel a ways before expiring after receiving even a hellish wound through the vitals.

All the deer and antelope I have shot have dropped within a few feet of where they were shot or wandered maybe 10 or 15 yds with the exception of 2. The first was a bungled head shot attempt on a deer on my part and the second was a buck antelope that I shot with a 25-06 and a 115 CT bullet which is essentially the same as a Ballistic Tip, which is a frangible type bullet. The antelope began an all out sprint when shot and started in to a large circle and piled up almost back at the spot where it was shot after sprinting approx 100 yds. When I got to the buck and turned him over he had a large exit wound of about 1 1/2" - 2" and lots of blood and some lung tissue on the ground. His lungs were shot up pretty good and when I skinned him out he had a 1" entrance wound under the hide, through the ribs. I could not have asked for better performance from a bullet. The bullet did its job but the buck took off anyway. That happens sometimes. Most of the animals I have taken that have dropped quickly were with partitions which made a smaller entrance, wound channel and exit. The 7mm 160 partition exits were usually about 1/2" - 1". The 115 CT bullet did a much better job than any of them but the antelope didn't care. It happens, and I did not complain about it.

When you make the statements you make, you are basically ignoring all the reports, many with pictures, of the successes people have had with Bergers. They are frangible bullets and as such have some limitations and are not the always best choice for shoulder shots or heavy bone. Usually, a blow up like this is the result of of using a lesser SD bullet. I have never heard of a blow up from a 300 gr 338 bullet or 215 gr and up 30 cal bullet. HINT.

When using frangible bullets it is best to use the heaviest for cal that your rifle can practically shoot. For me, that means the 230 out of my 300 RUM. Anything lighter might end up in a blow up at close range. For a 300 WSM and up I would use a 215 and for a 300 WM I would use at least a 215 and maybe a 230. The best shot placement for frangible bullets is through the ribs and into the vitals. I have read good reports of Bergers penetrating both shoulders but that's not a shot I would pick if I had the choice.

If it were possible to gather the data I would gladly wager that Berger bullets are responsible for more DRTs per shot than any other type of bullet and this is coming from a man who overall prefers a controlled expansion bullet as they give more overall flexibility in shots. That said, Bergers are a better LR bullet, they are accurate and they are cheap and at least 90% of the shots I have ever made were through the ribs and into the vitals.

Bergers are not junk on animals. When used properly, IMO, they are the best terminal performance bullets there are.

 

[Freedom2live]

Normally I Do Not respond to bullet failure post due to lack of experience with a rifle. Bow hunter for 40 years. Decided I wanted to try something else that I felt would be a challenge. I practiced for almost two years before I felt ready to take on a long range hunt. This past September I killed my first mulie 803 yd shot missed my poi by about 1-2" hit behind last rib bullet lodged in off side shoulder, insides were jell-o. I was shooting a 168vld in 7RM. Was it DRT nope in fact the only indication I hit it was it hunched up slightly, ( my spotter swore I missed). Before I could get a follow up shot off it walked into a small copse of trees. After glassing said trees for 4 hours went to check since I was sure of the shot. Buck was dead about 5 yds. in may have gone a total of 15 yds. from the shot. I didn't try a shoulder shot because of post like this I knew the capability of this bullet and where to place the shot. Am I gonna stop using bergers Hell No. Like anything else you need to use a tool for the job it was designed for in the manner it was designed. If it wasn't for this type of post how are we to learn what NOT to do. JMHO

Agreed

 

[MontanaRifleman]

First off, shoot what you want, as you are the one that has to live with the results.

The common thread that I see here, is people with bullet failures at ranges that are not ethical to start with. Why not hunt, instead of just SHOOT? I personally think Berger is just like Amax in that they are good for targets and that is it. That is my opinion and flame it if you want to.

As to the OP, I applaud anybody that does not let an animal leave the scene if they have the opportunity to stop it.

Keep the ranges reasonable and there will be far fewer threads on bullet failure on big animals, even if Bergers are the bullets used.

This is long range hunting here and we do not talk about ethics. Your ethics are yours and my ethics are mine and I have no business telling you how to shoot or hunt and vice versa. We all have different levels of equipment, experience and skill and it would be wise for all of us to know and operate with in those levels. What is a "reasonable" range to you may not be for someone else so just leave it at that.

And I do not need to be lectured on what is and isn't hunting. There is no set definition of hunting. If you want to do some REAL hunting, climb up in a tree with a knife in your mouth and jump down on to the back of a bull elk when he passes underneath.

In this particular case, the shot distance was 400 yds. Very "reasonable" IMO, so range had nothing to do with the mishap.

When you became a member here you agreed to abide by the rules here, one of which is no talki9ng about ethics. So please honor your agreement and leave your ethics at door.

 

[cowboy]

The common thread that I see here, is people with bullet failures at ranges that are not ethical to start with.

Keep the ranges reasonable and there will be far fewer threads on bullet failure on big animals, even if Bergers are the bullets used.

I have wanted to stay out of this, been there too many times before, and in the end no one changes their mind and I just end up P'ing someone off.

As far as your comment on unethical ranges - I have had more bullet failures in 50 plus years of killing at ranges inside 100 yds than outside 500 yds. None were Bergers at the time they happened. So what is an ethical range? I sure as he'll don't want to be the target with some of these guys on the trigger at 1000, 1200 or whatever yards on cold bore, windy as hell conditions and they only get one poke.

PS: we had a special spear chucking bill in our last legislative session here in Montana that got voted down. Would that be more ethical - sure wouldn't be considered long range.

What is unethical for one person is a 99.9% DRT shot for someone else.

I'm otta here - carry on.

 

[cowboy]

Montana rifleman: you type faster than me but you hit the nail on the head - and the hammer didn't fail.

 

[Jim See]

First off, shoot what you want, as you are the one that has to live with the results.

The common thread that I see here, is people with bullet failures at ranges that are not ethical to start with. Why not hunt, instead of just SHOOT? I personally think Berger is just like Amax in that they are good for targets and that is it. That is my opinion and flame it if you want to.

As to the OP, I applaud anybody that does not let an animal leave the scene if they have the opportunity to stop it.

Keep the ranges reasonable and there will be far fewer threads on bullet failure on big animals, even if Bergers are the bullets used.

I come to this site today because I am sick and stuck at home, and this is how a civil discussion this morning is going to end this afternoon. I joined here as Coyboy in 2005, crap like this has gone on the whole time.

At what point will you morons who think shooting over 150 yards is unethical just shut the F up and go over to 24hour campfire. this is not the place for you.

And as far as a-maxes. I had a string of 13 successful one shot kills with a 260ai and 140 a-maxes from 75 to 650 yards some time around 2006. My 8 year old killed 2 deer with 105 a-maxes this year at 150 and 170 yards, muzzle velocity of 2650 and perfect mushrooms on the offside hide after hitting bone.

Distance has little to do with bullet performance and kill rates. more jack-asses in the woods who don't know the limitations of there bullet, rifle, own skill, ect is what wounds game.

This stupid *** thread is about information sharing lets not all be a bunch of opinionated little bitches.

Sorry Len but you know how I can get sometimes.

 

[Broz]

First off, shoot what you want, as you are the one that has to live with the results.

The common thread that I see here, is people with bullet failures at ranges that are not ethical to start with. Why not hunt, instead of just SHOOT?

Keep the ranges reasonable and there will be far fewer threads on bullet failure on big animals, even if Bergers are the bullets used.

Yes, do shoot what you want and know how to use it and place it properly. Good point.

And Yes, we have read your posts and realize you are opposed to long range shots and have heard you state your opinion that long range is not hunting. But what I am a bit confused about is why you choose a forum called "Long Range Hunting" to converse on. Is it because you feel a need to state your negative opinion of it, and will have more opportunity to impose your thoughts, self imposed limits and lack long range skill on others here? Why not find a site where you can be among others that prefer your type of hunting and share friendly communication there. Might be more fun than all the negative posts on a site that is for exactly what you are against. Just a thought.

Actually in an attempt to add some useful insight to this thread. I disagree about getting closer with a high velocity fragmenting bullet would have helped in the case of this thread. I believe, actually the fact is, if this same shot and placement would have been from another 200 or 300 yards out the performance of the bullet would have been much different. Scrubbing off a little velocity when using a small for caliber offering with a MV of over 3100 fps could easily have resulted in deeper and maybe full penetration. At least full penetration into the vitals and a broken shoulder. I still would prefer a heavier offering for this shot. Lighter offerings, at closer distances with high velocity, into the thickest and hardest part of the animal is shall we say setting the stage for "the perfect storm".

Jeff

 

[Freedom2live]

So I wont use berger 168 hunting vlds anymore, what you gonna do about that ? Force me to shoot them on game again ??

For crying out aloud some of you are babies. Everyone here is entirely free to post why or why not they wont use them. Hey with these rounds I get .238 three shot groups at 200yds using sand bags, do I shoot milk jugs at 1430yds sure almost every weekend. Do I shoot ar500 8 inch gongs at 1000yds all the time, and it gets boring after an hour. Would I stop using berger hell no. Would I stop shooting bergers at lung shots and get pencil holes again you bet. That animal deserves upmost respect. If you wanna continue labeling me a berger basher go ahead. I spend for money and send more rounds across the canyon than most people buy in 5 years.

 

[FEENIX]

I come to this site today because I am sick and stuck at home, and this is how a civil discussion this morning is going to end this afternoon. I joined here as Coyboy in 2005, crap like this has gone on the whole time.

At what point will you morons who think shooting over 150 yards is unethical just shut the F up and go over to 24hour campfire. this is not the place for you.

And as far as a-maxes. I had a string of 13 successful one shot kills with a 260ai and 140 a-maxes from 75 to 650 yards some time around 2006. My 8 year old killed 2 deer with 105 a-maxes this year at 150 and 170 yards, muzzle velocity of 2650 and perfect mushrooms on the offside hide after hitting bone.

Distance has little to do with bullet performance and kill rates. more jack-asses in the woods who don't know the limitations of there bullet, rifle, own skill, ect is what wounds game.

This stupid *** thread is about information sharing lets not all be a bunch of opinionated little bitches.

Sorry Len but you know how I can get sometimes.

Hope you feel better Jim.

Can we just blame this on Mike and call it good.

Cheers!

Ed

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

First off, shoot what you want, as you are the one that has to live with the results.

The common thread that I see here, is people with bullet failures at ranges that are not ethical to start with. Why not hunt, instead of just SHOOT? I personally think Berger is just like Amax in that they are good for targets and that is it. That is my opinion and flame it if you want to.

As to the OP, I applaud anybody that does not let an animal leave the scene if they have the opportunity to stop it.

Keep the ranges reasonable and there will be far fewer threads on bullet failure on big animals, even if Bergers are the bullets used.

???? why are you here then bud????

The only ethics I'll preach here is only go to the max. range YOU can cleanly harvest a critter. Broz, Montana, and a few of the others are going way over my comfort zone, but I also hardly use a rangefunder and shoot from sitting when a critter shows. I personally top out around 700 yards at present and won't go over that. I'm looking at getting a rig and gear together to pass the 1000 yard mark, but that'll be a few years away.

As to the bullet splash, a common occurance with to light for caliber for the design. I had a 120 grain 7mm sierra splash once out of a 7-08 and had to use a 44mag and a left hook to get the critter down for good. I see a critter evry few years that has a chunk blown out of it with a 22 centerfire also, as people don't seem to get the memo that varmint bullets don't work well on deer.

Shoot them with a bullet heavy enough for the caliber considering the bullet make used and sleep well at night. I personally like fast time of flite and have put many 140 grain 7mms from sierra and nosler through bone and still got the critter; same with 30 cal 165 interlocks. On the flip side I'm working with both a 7rum and a 300 rum with heavy match pills and wouldn't dream of shooting lightweight/midweight match pills at the speeds I'm generating unless I'm popping rodents, etc.. The heavy bullet loads will push my max range a bit but the jury is out on how far.

To each his own. I for one would appreciate it if some would ask and learn a bit more and gripe and whine a bit less.
The mention of a 90 yard run on a well shot critter reminds me of a white tail doe I popped once with my 300 using 165 hornady. I was expecting 400 yard plus shooting and ended up sighting down the barrel as the doe was to close to use the scope. I blew both lungs out the other side (along with some shoulder meat) and she still made it 150 yards. It took half an hour to find her in yellow creek grass with a plowed field around it. You can get a critter to persevere with any bullet; it takes a good hunter/ tracker to sort out the mess afterward. Calling the bullet names afterward is immature and shallow.