Bear spray vs Bullets

[army1975]

I'd prefer to test fire a can of bear spray before I depend on it in the field. But I wonder if the test discharge is more apt to plug up the discharge nozzle - like what happens with spray paints. I just read the FAQs on the Counter Assault web site and they don't say anything about shelf life should one decide to test fire their product.

12. What is the shelf life of bear pepper spray?

Counter Assault products have a four-year recommended replacement date because ALL aerosols lose propellant over time. This four-year replacement date means that it will shoot to maximum distance the first four years, and will still spray a considerable distance after that date. For example, Counter Assault Bear Deterrent, when new, sprays 30 to 32 feet whereas many other bear deterrents only spray from 15 feet to 20 feet when freshly manufactured. Though the potency of the pepper does not diminish, all aerosol canister seals will weaken over time, allowing the propellant to escape.

13. Will Counter Assault work in freezing temperatures?

"Yes, although it will not spray as far at freezing temperatures, because a decrease in temperature causes a decrease in pressure, American and Canadian park rangers carry their Counter Assault under their jackets to keep it warm for emergency use. It has been used effectively in Cape Churchill, Manitoba against polar bears using this method and also in the Arctic at extremely low temperatures of 12°F/-12°C to -6°F/-22°C.

Air taxi pilots flying you out into the bush in small planes have the valid concern that if bear spray discharges inside the plane, they will be rendered incapable of flying the plane, or landing the plane safely. I don't specifically know the law for flights on small commuter air taxi planes. I know the bush pilots can refuse to fly anyone or anything they consider unsafe. Their choice. They may, or may not, allow you to fly with bear pepper spray. If the spray discharges in flight, you're in for bad times.

11. Can I carry Counter Assault onto an airplane?

FAA regulations do not allow transportation of more than 4 ounces of pepper spray packed in your luggage. You may call us for local dealers in the area you are going or we can drop-ship to your destination.

The universally recommended slug ammunition for bear protection in Alaska for those carrying shotguns for bear protection is the Brenneke ammo. Brenneke slugs are hard cast lead slugs. No expansion, but they'll cut a 3/4" diameter hole in the bear. Ever since an oilfield worker was killed during winter seismograph work locally on the Kenai Peninsula, oil companies and their contractors have been required to provide the protection of an armed bear guard with every field team. A large brown bear rushed out of its den in the middle of winter, as the worker walked past. Quickly bit and crushed the man's skull, and then promptly escaped into the forest. Gone. Was never found by State officials. Poor tracking snow conditions. It was reported to be a big boar. It takes a big bear with a wide jaw spread to be able to open wide enough to grasp and crush a human skull. Most efforts by smaller bears result in a scalping.

Armed means firearm, not bear spray. They predominantly carry shotguns loaded with Brenneke slugs. These bear guards are commonly licensed big game hunting guides that pick up some extra employment in their off-season. Never, ever, heard of a bear guard solely carrying bear spray to fulfill his job duties as bear guard. It's a firearm or unemployment.

I would never use expanding slugs for large bear protection, given the choice of a Brenneke. Brenneke slugs are deadly on bear, small or big. Products Most any slug would do the job on a "Winnie the Pooh" bear. You want penetration from a 12 gauge slug on the big boys.

BTW, one of these bear guards was mauled down by Homer, AK, a few years back. Even bear protection guards and big game guides aren't bear proof, when the bear gets the surprise advantage. I don't have the fine details of that event. Bear guard wasn't killed, and it wasn't even a terrible mauling. A "common" mauling, so to speak...

as for me, any mauling would be a terrible mauling for me.

 

[army1975]

Came across this video of a guy doing a Counter Assault demo.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A0LEVj8nU_tUOy4AVaknnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTB0b2ZrZmU3BHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1lIUzAwMl8x?p=bear+spray+fail&tnr=21&vid=D625F97E68B5EC4DC5C5D625F97E68B5EC4DC5C5&l=159&turl=http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=UN.608014507421073745&pid=15.1&sigi=11rhkr342&rurl=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7JZzY3hawc&sigr=11b64clp1&tt=b&tit=Bear+Mace+Fail&sigt=10et8089p&back=https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=bear+spray+fail&ei=UTF-8&hsimp=yhs-001&hspart=mozilla&sigb=12rkum8hg&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001

watched demo spray on different bear sprays, including what i carry, guard alaska 9oz., and all seemed to do a mighty fine job.

 

[Muddyboots]

Wow! 6 years old, 24 pages, still kicking thread!
Bear awareness is still not employed nor deployed in most of the campsites I have been around in bear country. I am usually laughed at when I use standard bear protection protocols. Even for black bears. I just don't get it. Same folks are fastidious on scent control while hunting but disregard simple bear safety protocols around camp. This problem then carries over to the next poor unsuspecting hunter that camps in same area where bears have had run if the place. I hunt a spot in CO, where a site 100 yards from me was no doubt causing a potential dangerous situation. They were laughing at a bear that kept trying to enter their tent. Really?

Why is this so difficult to use bear safety in campsites? Food cooked in tents, food scraps tossed nearby, food not hung up away from campsite, simple hygiene of toothpaste etc in tents. All are bear attractors. This same attitude carries into the woods. I don't see folks quartering and hanging quarters up 100 yds or more from actual kill site. Yeah, its a royal PITA but not likely to have any problems returning to the carcass then. Bear or other predators will gladly munch on a bloody carcass.

I totally concur that comparing a hunter returning to retrieve from a kill site to a backpacker are two entirely different encounter scenarios. Bear demeanor is completely different and requires different response. Startled versus angry and territorial presents major oh crap.

Even using full awareness, solid bear safety, if you are in woods long enough you will have some sort of an encounter. The response you choose should be the one you are proficient with and effective. I practice with my 686+ 357 with 180 Partitions and have never discharged a bear spray under any circumstance. I know what I am comfortable with. I watch my backtrail constantly since I once had a black bear trail me for quite a distance walking out of back country in Adirondacks. This got real interesting once darkness fell and I could still hear it behind me. Back then it was a Ruger Redhawk .44 Mag and it was in hand even though carrying .270. Once I got back to truck buddy was just walking up too, I told him throw rifle onto back seat, we are driving down 2 track to put some distance before we gear down. Hunted there next day and never saw a bear so WTH?

Bear aware, bear safety protocols in camp, bear protocols on kill site, if you find a kill carcass, hunt somewhere else, carry whatever you feel most proficient with which is not the same as what makes you feel "safe". I would rather lose hunting privilege than my life. I will err on side of extreme protection for my life and use whatever I have to do so.

So this should be good for another 24 pages

 

[army1975]

Here's another interesting video. A trained bear attacks and kills a guy in a production situation. As soon as spray is deployed, the bear backs off. Unfortunately for the man killed, the spray was deployed a little late.

seen that clip on youtube i did. unfortunatley the bear was born to know how to kill. no matter what, animals will do what their species do, trained or not, imo. no way in the devils home would i get around an animal, other than a dog or cat.

 

[army1975]

You're not going to appreciate this response. You said "So I'll leave it there" more than 55 posts prior to this one.

Yes we all have opinions and we are all expressing them. Your opinion and the belief that yours is the superior one, led you to pose a question utterly without merit within this Thread's topic of discussion. "Why bet your life on anything?" The effect was to disparage the opinion and preference expressed by WildRose. But then your immediate response to my post, which exposed the irrelevant and condescending nature of your question, was "We all have our opinions on that and they have been pretty well fleshed out. No perfect answers... we do what we can do and what we think is best.." That's the healthy equivalent of "live and let live".

Which begs the question... is it live and let live only when you've decided it's time to live and let live? You could have, and really should have, adhered to that position of tolerance before asking WildRose "Why bet your life on anything?" Should have, that is, if you truly subscribe to "live and let live", respecting all members expressions of their opinions on whether bear spray or bullets are the better self defense tool.

Here's my answer to your question, "Why bet your life on anything?" Because we incur risk, and continually place incremental bets on our lives, in the pursuit of happiness. We bet our life when we drive our cars, when we walk across the street, when we venture into the bear's domain. We bet our life throughout life. What was the point of your question? To imply WildRose shouldn't place himself in the potential presence of bears, in order to avoid any bet that a bear might possibly take his life? He never said he was frozen in fear of bears. The neutral interpretation of WildRose's posts are that he'll not bet his life on what he believes to be the inferior defensive tool --> bear spray.

lol, he did leave it there, on that post he posted he did.

 

[army1975]

Some have mentioned not being able to "read" bears, I like Wildrose's comment about having a plan, training, and executing it.

Not much you can do in some cases such as surprise at close range, but my read of some accounts, and some video's, how much some folks let a bear get by with, and how close they allow a bear to get without ratcheting up their assessment of threat level.

If a bear is within 50 yards of me, and aware I'm there, yet doesn't respond in normal bear fashion of busting out for parts unknown, it has my undivided attention. Making more noise making sure it knows I'm there, and I'm making sure whatever I'm planning to defend myself with is accessible.

If it fails to either retreat or allow me to increase distance between us I'm cranking it up another level, I'm accessing whatever it is I'm going to defend myself with, and trying to make myself appear as formidable as I can.

The deadline will very with your choice of weapon, and conditions on the ground ,but the one constant is-bears are fast, and for the most part 20 yards is too close for me to tolerate, and I'm likely removing said bear from the gene pool.

Quite frankly the conditions on the ground here doesn't include throwing myself on the mercy of the court.

as for myself, if still creeping up, i would give a shot of spray to see the reaction.

 

[army1975]

Point takin! However, the only way that you can change my mind is if I let you. If the spray works for you,Great! Again, I've never been put in the position of a bear encounter, an hope I don't, however if the situation arises, I would feel more comfortable with a firearm! I'm to fat to run an to stupid to be scared, so my vote goes to a firearm of choice! Thanks!

DT

lol, my firearm of choice would be a rpg launcher, but reckin since can't have one, i will just stick with my ruger redhawk .44 mag., 7.5, loaded with buffalo bore 340g..

 

[army1975]

Paul, the question to Wildrose was a rhetorical one. My point with the reply was, IMO, we spend a lot of time and emotion on a topic like this and I think it's overkill. On average, our chances of getting struck by lightening is greater than being attacked by a bear... and the vast majority of the relatively few attacks do not result in death... making a mountain out of an ant hill.

There are a number of us in this thread who live and play in bear country and have had numerous encounters with bears and have not been attacked. /who knows how many times a Bear walked past my tent while I was sleeping inside. Once when there was a light snowfall during the night I found a set of tracks that walked in a straight line passing within 10' of my tent. My food was hung high in a tree. I was elk hunting and I did have a loaded 7 mag in the tent with me.

In a study Titled "Efficacy of Bear Deterrent Spray in Alaska" I found this;

The study also concludes that people who use spray as a deterrent were less likely to be seriously injured or killed by a bear than those who used firearms. Now there are those who favor using a gun for defense that say this was a biased study promoting a non-lethal way of deterring bears. It seems to me the study clearly stated the data and defined it's parameters. IME, the only way this study could be biased is if it left out data.

Also, the early years that the study covers were prior to the development of the newer more effective types of sprays.

Nothing I have written in thread suggests that I am "selective" in "live and let live". I have stated numerous times that a person should use whatever type of protection they want/are comfortable with. That said, when someone says something that I believe is not quite factual, then I'll address it. i.e., failure of spray can to function.

Cheers

smart man u r, had firearm locked and loaded.

 

[army1975]

The first thirty seconds of that video tells me all I need to know. To paraphrase him he stated that he's seen people empty an entire can on a bear and it then took several minutes for the bear to decide to go away.

He also ends up getting a good dose of it it himself which is one of the biggest problems with bear sprays. You certainly can't guarantee that the bear attacking you will be down wind.

The other problem I have with it is the need for two hands to operate it. One to hold and discharge, the other to remove the safety tab.

as for myself, practice taking safety tab off with thumb on hand holding canister.

 

[army1975]

Wow! 6 years old, 24 pages, still kicking thread!
Bear awareness is still not employed nor deployed in most of the campsites I have been around in bear country. I am usually laughed at when I use standard bear protection protocols. Even for black bears. I just don't get it. Same folks are fastidious on scent control while hunting but disregard simple bear safety protocols around camp. This problem then carries over to the next poor unsuspecting hunter that camps in same area where bears have had run if the place. I hunt a spot in CO, where a site 100 yards from me was no doubt causing a potential dangerous situation. They were laughing at a bear that kept trying to enter their tent. Really?

Why is this so difficult to use bear safety in campsites? Food cooked in tents, food scraps tossed nearby, food not hung up away from campsite, simple hygiene of toothpaste etc in tents. All are bear attractors. This same attitude carries into the woods. I don't see folks quartering and hanging quarters up 100 yds or more from actual kill site. Yeah, its a royal PITA but not likely to have any problems returning to the carcass then. Bear or other predators will gladly munch on a bloody carcass.

I totally concur that comparing a hunter returning to retrieve from a kill site to a backpacker are two entirely different encounter scenarios. Bear demeanor is completely different and requires different response. Startled versus angry and territorial presents major oh crap.

Even using full awareness, solid bear safety, if you are in woods long enough you will have some sort of an encounter. The response you choose should be the one you are proficient with and effective. I practice with my 686+ 357 with 180 Partitions and have never discharged a bear spray under any circumstance. I know what I am comfortable with. I watch my backtrail constantly since I once had a black bear trail me for quite a distance walking out of back country in Adirondacks. This got real interesting once darkness fell and I could still hear it behind me. Back then it was a Ruger Redhawk .44 Mag and it was in hand even though carrying .270. Once I got back to truck buddy was just walking up too, I told him throw rifle onto back seat, we are driving down 2 track to put some distance before we gear down. Hunted there next day and never saw a bear so WTH?

Bear aware, bear safety protocols in camp, bear protocols on kill site, if you find a kill carcass, hunt somewhere else, carry whatever you feel most proficient with which is not the same as what makes you feel "safe". I would rather lose hunting privilege than my life. I will err on side of extreme protection for my life and use whatever I have to do so.

So this should be good for another 24 pages

would of been up in here way sooner but just came across this site on the net. here in my neck of the woods, asheville, nc, in the appalachian mountain, we are home to the black bear. seen some good size ones all up in here. just had a couple mauled by a bear three miles from where i reside. on the blue ridge parkway mauling took place. luckly they survived.

 

[army1975]

Yeah, I noticed that as well. Hard to say what was going on there. Did the person panic and depress the trigger until the can was emptied? Did the guy actually see someone use it on a bear or was he just talking (Brian Williams syndrome)? What I DID see was, after the spray was deployed, a very short burst, it dissipated and started drifting back to him and the camera man as evidenced by them starting to cough. Similar to what happened to me. It is very potent stuff. As it is coming directly out of the can, it is hundreds of times more concentrated in PPM.

And yes, wind can be a complicating factor but it can be dealt with. I would rather get a whiff of spray than a face full of teeth and claws.

Did you see the second video? That bear was in a rage and as soon as the bear was hit with the spray it retreated. That bear was extremely intent and intense. There was a lot of spray left in those cans after it backed off. This brings up something else to think about. I you are with a buddy or buddies and you are jumped by a bear before having time to react, would you rather your buddies are spraying spray, or spraying lead at the bear with you underneath it?

Also, you might want to go back and look at the first video again. The guy operated the can with one hand including removing the safety tab.

Interestingly, I am the only one in this thread who has had an "intimate" experience with spray. As I said previously, before that experience I was very skeptical about sprays and figured that a gun was my best defense. I changed my way of thinking and I do know how to use a gun.

Earlier, I half seriously and half jokingly offered a wager to anyone who could successfully charge me while I was spraying them. If that would actually happen, I have little doubt the person would end up in the ER. Please do not attempt that. Don't even have someone directly give you a short burst as I suggested to someone else earlier. The best thing to do if you want to know what this stuff is like is to pick a calm day, spray a short burst and then start walking toward it.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I'm just trying to separate the wheat from the chaff on the subject so folks can make an informed decision based on facts and objectivity.

imo, anybody with common sense know that if bear spray turn away a bear, it would **** sure do a # on a human.

 

[army1975]

Too many. One is one too many. I know of two fatal maulings within 15 air miles of where I live, and the brown bears never fed on either of the victims. Bears tore off the tops of these men's skulls leaving their brains exposed. These two men weren't killed for food. Both of these bears made clean getaways. I knew one of these victims, and still own a Winchester M70 Featherweight, 7mm Mauser that I purchased from him. The bear killed him about 10 years after I purchased his rifle. He'd decided to get some exercise and hike out a well known horse trail off Funny River Road on a spring Sunday. I've hiked out that very horse trail myself several times. A few miles off the highway, he stopped, took his day pack off, and was preparing a bite to eat for lunch. A large brown bear evidently got the jump on him. He never returned. He was a very accomplished rifleman. An avid target shooter and hunter. The search party found him and his gear, his rifle, but no bear. The bear clearly killed him outright. No savage mauling. The bear tore portion of his skull loose/off. The bear was gone and never found.

I know of two additional men that would have been killed had they not killed the boars before the boars killed them. Again both maulings within 15 air miles of where I live. I knew one of these two men, and described his mauling earlier in this Thread. My brother knows the other man, and I also posted a link to the story of the boar that charged him. Both of these men survived their attacks with revolvers. One a .44 Magnum S&W, the other a .454 Casull Ruger Alaskan. The bear that was shot with the .44 Magnum was never found. The one shot with the .454 dropped in the middle of a gravel subdivision road.

While hunting on Kodiak Island several years back, another deer hunter was killed on Uganik Island by a brown bear, about 15 miles from where I was hunting.

Last spring my brother was flying to his remote house in Uganik Bay, on the NW side of Kodiak Island. He observed a boat on the east side of Sally Island about 6 miles from his house. When he arrived, his neighbor and he listened to the radio transmissions in Uganik Bay and learned that a man had just been mauled on Sally Island. The US Coast Guard was enroute. The mauling victims hunting partner shot and killed the sow brown bear while it was mauling his buddy with his own hunting rifle. Shot the bear in the rear quarters initially, causing the bear to reposition itself, and then shot it thru the shoulders. Next thing he knows another brown bear appears, a cub of the sow he'd just killed. He dispatches that bear as it approaches with another shot from his rifle. Good thing he didn't use up his can of bear spray on that first bear.

Bear maulings are a regular occurrence where I live and hunt. Victims seem to be killed maybe 20% of the time.

An older woman well known within the long distance/marathon running circles in Alaska was jogging up McHugh Creek Trail just south of Anchorage, with her son. I've been up that trail myself several times. A brown bear mauled and killed her. Her son approached and tried to assist her. The brown bear mauled and killed her son.

I could go on. I can provide links to these maulings, which were reported in the Alaskan media.

I posted earlier of a black bear that stalked up to within 20 feet of me while I was napping on a spring bear hunt. This bear came up from directly downwind. He followed my scent trail up to me. Fortunately, I raised my head just in time to see his two black ear tips slowly come into view off the edge of the knowl I was resting on. The last 7 yards of his approach, we were in complete view of one another. His eyes were locked on mine. Step by step. I killed him at 20 feet with a 7mm 160gr Nosler Accubond from a 7mm Rem Mag. He charged off 30 yards and collapsed, down within about 6 seconds from the time the bullet struck home.

I get the impression you believe bear maulings and attacks happen so infrequently that there's little cause for concern. The bears where I live, play, and hunt often play for keeps.

I can go on. A ladies husband from our church was charged by a large boar brown bear up Fuller Lakes Trail 30 miles east of where I live. I've hiked up this trail a number of times, and packed a black bear back out down this trail once. He was with several friends. Steve Devito shot and killed the boar while it was headlong into its charge at point blank range. A friend was also shooting at the bear. These aren't boo boo bears. The large boars with wide enough jaw spreads can crush a man's skull in one bite. The smaller ones try but end up ripping off pieces of scalp, or the entire scalp.

Al Thompson, a local game warden was mauled out the Funny River Horse trail 35 years ago. Forgot about him. My brother knew him well and I had also met him a couple of times. He was camping with his wife hunting moose when a large boar brown bear came into their shelter in the middle of the night and grabbed his wife. Al instinctively grabbed the bear by the head, and then the bear grabbed him and drug him out and off. This bear didn't kill Al, but gave him a terrible whooping. Being as Al was a game warden, and folks were too kindly toward game wardens back in the day, locals kindly nicknamed Al Thompson "Bear Bait Al". The first time I met Al was when I was doing a soils investigation on property he owned, preparing it to be subdivided. He was in his Fish and Wildlife clothing. When he took his cap off, I notice about 5 separate hair part lines on his scalp, and there was evidence of scarring on his forehead. This boar must not have crunched down on Al's face, because his face was well balanced. Hardly disfigured at all.

And then there was the Riverside Auto Parts owner (Gary) mauled down by Ninilchik during a moose hunt. He heard a grunt, thought it might be a moose. He poked his nose out thru some alders only to face two adult brown bears coming in full charge. Gets mauled pretty good. Seems like he got off a shot to no avail. Gary had weird hair parts on his head also.

So yes, I know folks that have been mauled, and worse yet, I've known folks killed by bears. The odds are good I'll know a few more as time goes on. Bear maulings are a fairly regular occurrence. I consider them a real possibility, and I prepare for them as if my life depends on it. Because it might. I'd rather not offer myself up, and make an easy victim. And if a bear attacks me and I can kill it, others will be thankful for making the area safer for all. At least two separate individuals thanked me for killing that black bear. It was near a heavily used hiking trail in the Kenai Mountains.

I prefer to kill problem bears with a firearm, than take the chance of smartening one up with pepper spray for the next victim. The majority of the folks that live where I live feel likewise. And the one's that don't quickly change their perspectives on that matter after they or someone they know has a bad bear experience.

as for me on spray or bullet, depends on situation with the bear. bear could say same on humans creeping on them to take a pic.

 

[Pdvdh]

Bullets over hot pepper sauce any day. Dead serious bears aren't typically gonna give a guy time to use both pepper spray and a firearm. Often there's not enough time to use either one before the bear takes you down. I've seen upset bears react so quickly, a guy couldn't respond unless his finger was already on the trigger. So better plan on using one, or the other (spray versus bullet).

Less serious, what I refer to as pussycat bears, will give you plenty of time to react. But those attacks are often bluff behaviors. And a guy will typically walk away from those without bear spray or a firearm.

And then there's the Timothy Treadwell predatory bears, that casually walk up, take you down, and begin feeding on you while you're still alive. Like a cat playing with a mouse.

Dead bears don't hurt anyone. Nothing but bullets for me. Never bought a can of bear spray in my life. Never will... for better, or for worse. Pick your medicine, and live or die by it.

 

[army1975]

The yellow zip strip is a retail safety thing that also lets you know that the unit has not been tampered with. You remove that prior to going to the field. The safety tab is the flat plastic tab that the guy pulled back with his thumb. That is the safety tab. One handed operation.

Really? You have personally seen a bear in full sprint? I have seen a lot of bears and only saw one in full out sprint. Do you have a link to any video that you have seen a bear in full sprint? The videos I have seen of bears galloping and charging are not full out sprints.

Regardless, no matter how fast you are with a gun, you are only going to get as much time as you get and you will not have control of that. Like I said, you might have time to empty your clip and you might have time to pray while the bear is knawing on your skull.

Now, go back and look at the second video and honestly tell me, which option would have been better.... spray or lead. There was a helluva lot of jerky movement going on there.

lol, nope, charging is not a full out sprint, it is a full out charge coming to get cha. sprint is just a layed back run.