Bear spray vs Bullets

[HARPERC]

....Another bear spray failure near Hope, Alaska, about one week ago. A 46yr-old man failed to return to his house. He was found dead about 1 mile up the hill behind his house, obviously killed by a bear. He was clearing out a trail, according to officials investigating the incident, and recovering the body. Found next to him was an empty can of bear spray. Pretty sure the bear didn't trigger and empty the can of bear spray.,,,,,,,In the aftermath, the State of Alaska killed four female bears in the immediate area. One brown bear and three black bears. Fur from a female brown bear and a female black bear fur were recovered at the attack site. DNA confirmed both bears were females. DNA testing on the dead bears hasn't been announced yet, but they're being tested to see if there's a match to the fur collected at the attack site. Hopefully so........Poor guy couldn't have done any worse with a firearm.....

Good to see the bears haven't got you yet! I've been wondering about you.

 

[Pdvdh]

Hah! I'm still kicking, shooting, hunting. I suspect the bears sense they'll have to contend with more than a heavy dose of seasoning should they come for me.

And perhaps that, in itself, improves my survivability when I enter their domain!

 

[army1975]

I carry a bear spray and a .44 Mag when I am in bear country and never alone.

When hiking, I also have my Karelian Bear Dog with me. gun)

good choice. my aresnal be guard alaska 9oz. and a ruger redhawk, .44 mag., 7.5, loaded with buffalo bore 340gr..

 

[army1975]

Tend to agree with this. Do their studies include the fact that the majority of folk only carrying pepper spray aren't hunters? And those people aren't retrieving dead game animals from the wilderness, as hunters commonly do, which is a common cause of serious bear/hunter encounters? Do the pepper sprayers ever try to take a meal away from a hungry bear. Just saying the comparisons are unequal, since the exposure scenarios and circumstances are unequal.

BEWARE pepper sprayers; Last year a co-worker brought a can of bear spray to work in order to demonstrate its use and range to some of the staff. I was interested to see how far his spray would extend so I could evaluate its potential effectiveness in the field. He went to activate the can of bear spray and... and... and... nothing. It was a dud - same as the dud firecrackers we'd come across as kids. He turned a bit white in the face, realizing he'd carried this can of bear spray around in bear country and had bet his life on it performing. This demonstration quickly resolved the matter of which is preferential for me.

So this was the brand of bear spray with the picture of the company owner bloodied from head to toe. Now I know how he got that way. **** bear spray...

My co-worker contacted the bloodied company owner and asked him what was up. The company told him to check the expiration date on the container. He checked the expiration date stamped on the can, and yes, the company's expiration date was exceeded. Well, my ammo doesn't come with expiration dates stamped on their casings, and I've never experienced any duds to date that weren't of my own fault or doing. But if I do have a dud shell, there will be more in the cylinders or magazine to follow.

So I told this story to the local Fish & Game employee who trains State of Alaska staff and other public agency staff on bear protection as part of his work duties. He told me had also had a can of bear spray that didn't fire during one of his training courses, and his can was within its expiration date. Told me that his preference for bear protection was a Remington 870 pump action shotgun loaded with Brenneke slugs. Said he'd never had a failure to fire with his equipment.

This Fish & Game employee is also the staff person that responds to all bear complaints in his geographical area for Fish & Game. He's encountered and killed many problem bears over the years in these work duties. I was once stalked by a boar black bear and killed it at a distance of 7yds with a bullet (not pepper spray). This bear followed my scent trail from down wind and continued to approach me, eyes locked on mine for the last 7yds of his life. I was out in the open, broad daylight, no cover whatsoever between the bear and I. This was not a case of mistaken identity. When I turned in that bear's hide in to F&G for sealing to the F&G employee previously mentioned, and when I told him my story he said this: "As far as I'm concerned, bears are nothing more than opportunistic predators". This from a man who's life's experiences place him in a better position than most, to form an opinion on bear character and behavior.

IF you rely on bear spray, you better also carry a firearm so you can shoot a "dud" can of pepper spray to release its contents. gun)

and that is why best to carry a firearm also. hopefully if one don't take care of the bear, the other will.

 

[army1975]

Why isn't my can of bear spay and my rifle good enough? why do I also need to carry a 4-5lb hand gun? I think I'm pretty handy with a rifle. I haven't heard about spay cans not working. That does concern me a lot.

to each his own on firearms

 

[army1975]

Sorry for the confusion... bear spray vs bullets was the title of the article I posted.

However my point was that I don't carry a hand gun when backpack hunting. That being said some of the post on here about bear spray failing to spray may lead to reconsideration on my part to rely on bear spray.

I am not convinced that a hand gun stop a bear before it gets to you, but I have not tried shot a charging grizz so I don't know. Nor have I used spray on one either so I, like you have to make a choice on what to use. You have made your choice and I make a choice each time I go in field. Unless you have faced down and shot a charging grizzly you are basing your opinion and choice on someone else's experience or just assuming you are right. That's OK because that's exactly what I am doing. This thread is an opportunity to discuss and debate the topic and that's what we are doing. I find it interesting that some people however, decide to state their opinion by being insulting to those that do not agree with them. There is a lot of evidence on the web that suggests that spray is more effective. Ive read similar articles in hunting magazines. I have not found a single written article or any evidence for that matter, other than in forums, that recommends a 44 mag over bear spray. There might be evidence I just haven't seen it. Going forward I will research for failure of bear spray. Maybe

good discussion. interesting. just hope don't have failiure with both spray and firearm. if do, then bend over and kiss *** goodbye.

 

[army1975]

Why do most of you carry 44 mags instead of 460 S&W or 454 or even 500 S&W?

as for myself, love the .44

 

[army1975]

I don't think ill be carrying a rifle, a hand gun and a can of pepper spray while backpack hunting. Too much stuff to carry. I also bow hunt while backpacking. So now the decision is hand gun or spray or both. Carrying both is still a lot to carry. Assuming that I choose one or the other I need to make a choice on which will provide the most likely chance to survive. Nothing else matters. By that I mean things like politics, peer pressure, etc.

The only data I can find suggest that bear spray has the edge. Other have pointed out that they believe the results are slanted towards the politics of the people who did the data gathering. This may be right, I don't know. The problem is I cannot find any evidence that suggest a hand gun works better most of time. So for me I have to look at as many variables as possible and then make a choice.

I believe that a revolver WILL fire every time. Aerosol cans sometimes fail, (read that on this thread). Tips towards hand gun at this point. However what is percentage of the time that the hand gun will stop a bear? Totally depends on shot placement and the ability of the person using the weapon. I don't believe a hand gun will stop a frizz in its tracks unless the wound is in the brain or spine. A good bear spray fans out making impact on the bears head somewhat easier. However strong winds can mess up this plan.

I don't think there is a perfect choice. I guarantee that spray will work better for my wife or anyone else who is not good with a handgun and shooting while rushed. I am positive that a handgun is not the right choice all the time no matter what or who is using it.

It comes down to what you feel tip the odds in your favor the most. Whichever way you go you need a plan and prepared to execute it.

carry both, spray don't weigh that much. then have a choice depending on the situation. what i do. different strokes for different folks, as the saying goes.

 

[army1975]

It's funny how this subject always draws out a lot of "passionate "discussion".

When I first got to Montana many years ago, I bought a Ruger Redhawk 41 (beautiful gun, loved it) for the express purpose of bear defense while fishing in Griz country, usually the Dearborn River on the Eastern Front. I lived n Great Falls then. Walking through thick willows in Griz country can be a little un-nerving. The 41 made me feel better.

The more time I spent in bear country, the less nervous I became, and over the years I spent a good deal of time in bear country, especially in the Beartooths, Absorkees, Gallatins and Madison ranges after I moved to Bozeman. Most of the time I did not carry gun or spray and had numerous encounters with bears usually at a comfortable distance, especially when fishing in the Park (Yellowstone).

One interesting encounter happened while I was fishing, hiking up stream on the Yellowstone from Tower Falls in YNP back country. Wasn't carrying anything but my fly rod and my head was down on the trail when all of a sudden I saw a dark blur go by me on my left. It was about a 200 lb blackie in full gallop that passed about 20' to my left. I have fished slough creek quite a bit and about half my trips up there I see bears, sometimes multiple. After a while I decided maybe I should carry some protection as the odds might catch up to me someday. (And BTW, I have had as many or more bear encounters in my back yard as I have in the back country.)

Well back then you could not carry firearms in the park so I got some bear spray. Ok, so reading through this thread so far I have not noticed anyone making the distinction between different types of spray. There is a huge difference. UDAP and Counter Assault are more of a vapor than a spray and they get into your breathing passages and lungs, and mess you up big time. I know this because I tested UDAP myself once. On a calm day I squeezed the trigger for less than half a second and in less than half a second it shot out a burst that went about 30' and was about 6-8' in diameter. Just then a very light breeze started blowing it back in my direction so I retreated until the orange cloud disappeared. Then I walked back to the spot where I originally discharged it. Although I no longer saw any sign of it, I started choking and gagging and became nauseous. I felt very crappy for a couple of hours. These sprays are totally different than the sprays that are basically skin irritants. For any of you that have been through tear gas training (I have), I would say it was similar to that but a good bit more intense. A few years ago, some high school kid thought he would have some fun and discharged some UDAP into the bleachers of a football game. Several people were taken the the ER of the hospital.

So I know a few of you boys posting to this thread and I'll make a friendly little wager with anyone who wants to take me up. My $1000 to your $100, you stand 20' away from me and on the word "go", I start spraying and if you can get to me and grab the can in my hand you get my $1K, if not, I get your $100.

I think my Montana, Wyoming and Idaho buddies will agree that the vast majority of bear attacks in this country happen to hunters, usually bow hunters calling elk. Bottom line, being in bear country is probably a lot less dangerous than driving home from a New Years Eve party dodging drunks.

best weapon there is for use in bear country, a fly rod. can't beat it with a stick. my south of the border parts aren't big enough just to be armed with a fly rod.

 

[army1975]

There were some accurate things said about spray in previous posts but they applied to the older types of sprays that were basically skin irritants. Totlly different animals than some of the newer devolved products that are actually illegal to use on humans.

So I just wanted to jump and clear that up so we have good current info to work with.

Buy a can and try it yourself, just don't have anything important planned for the rest of the day

what i be a thinking on sprays on there strength. as for myself, bear spray is way to stout for a human to handle. be a sight to see someone try to go for the bet.

 

[army1975]

Newspapers can't print what isn't spoken from the dead, when the dead are digested, excreted, and never found.

Bears come in all styles and flavors, from Teddies to Killers. The only bear that's incapable of killing is a dead bear.

I know of no official in Alaska who's work duties include responding to trouble and nuisance bears carrying only bear spray. The man responsible for responding in my area of Alaska told me he has no use for it, never carries it, and he did not recommend it to me. He has more bear encounters and interactions than most. But no one's being forced to comply with his preferences.

The officials that flew out to recover the remains of Timothy Treadwell and his girlfriend didn't carry bear spray. And when the killer bear approached them as they approached the victims remains, they sprayed that bear with lead, not pepper. Then another brown bear approached and it met the same end.

These responders are given their choice of defense options. If they trusted bear spray more than bullets, why wouldn't these officials carry and use bear spray preferentially to lethal firearms? I gotta believe they've considered their options.

The fact that I post this response doesn't mean I take anyone's stated preference or statements about their best bear defense tool personally. Forums allow readers exposure to all sides of the issues, from all perspectives, from all sorts of folks. I'm expressing my perspective, not forcing it on anyone. There's nothing personal about "dead men don't speak". The folks that have disappeared in Alaska that have never been found, don't report how they met their end, and neither do newspapers.

Most folks that don't know how to shoot a firearm do know how to discharge aerosol spray from a can. The bear spray is apt to be better than "Baaaaad Bear". As far as believing the Federally funded studies, those researchers and authors work for the same authorities that preferred the rest of us be prohibited from carrying firearms in national parks. Which is to say, they seem to be biased for reasons other than my best interests...

treadwell bears would of been put down anyway, so why waste bear spray on them?

 

[army1975]

Have heard that wasp spray is effective too. Still think I'd pick real bear spray if in bear country (along with a sidearm...).

would be nice if was. be alot cheaper.

 

[army1975]

For those who opt to carry a sidearm, I would recommend a double action revolver as they are slightly more reliable than an auto. Also, with an auto, you are going to have jack the slide or carry with one in the chamber which IMO is a little sketchy. With a double action you can leave one chamber empty and when you pull the trigger or cock the hammer it will load a loaded chamber for fire. You might say that only leaves you 5 shots (6 in some revolvers) In an attack situation, your chances of getting off more than 2 or 3 shots is very slim. I would choose about a 4-6" barrel. I would use hardcast wad cutters or semi wad cutters over a max load of powder.

Good luck

as for myself, one can't beat a ruger redhawk .44 mag. for the sidearm. don't need to have an empty chamber and buffalo bore has the perfect ammo to do a bear in.

 

[army1975]

I a recent trip to Alaska for a fishing trip TSA without comment or request removed bear spray from my packed luggage. Bear spray may work but only if you have it.

Roy

always the possiblility of bear spray canister malfunction. got my guard alaska 9oz. canister in a kozee-tote container at home and in vehicle just in case, but understand why can't still travel on plane with such precaution.