Bear spray vs Bullets

[army1975]

That is not what happened in the video. The attack was about 6 seconds in duration beigging at time stamp 4:39. At time stamp 4:41, the bear has the man on the ground and the trainer begins to hit the bear with a stick (which I suspect may have angered the bear more). At 4:43 the bear begins to violently shake the man and flip him around like a rag doll. At 4:45 the attendants begin to spray the bear. Approximately a half second later the bear breaks off the attack and retreats. That's what happened. The attendents were not blasting the bear for 5 seconds or anywhere near that. it took half a second of spray to run off the bear. The bear was a trained and still a wild animal. You can never take the wild out of a wild animal. For a short period of time it became extremely territorial. That was an extremely intense and vicious attack. I was read a lot of bear attack accounts and most them are not that intense. Most victims survive the attack and this bear killed the victim in 6 seconds.

Had the attendants starting spraying the bear when the attack began, I am as certain as I can be that the man would have survived. Why? Because the bear broke off the attack the instant it was hit with spray. Can't get much more effective than that.

that is what i took from the video

 

[army1975]

Try reading that again. The fatal bite was delivered in the first five seconds. Everything that followed is really irrelevant.

Yes the bear released him finally after being sprayed but the attack continued during the spraying and for a second or two after.

It only took a very few seconds for the fatal injury to be inflicted.

with what i seen, the man was history from the get go

 

[army1975]

Jon,
I haven't seen the outcome perhaps you know, the hiker that shot a bear in Glacier last year was charged with discharging the firearm. Specifically it was stated it's legal to carry in the Park but illegal to fire it.

Strange case, one report has him spraying the bear then shooting it?

makes alot of sense, legal to carry, illegal to fire. then again, one could pistol whip the bear.

 

[army1975]

First, I'm not here to win any points. Like I said my purpose was to bring facts to light and dispel myths and there are a lot of myths and ignorance about bear spray floating around. When people start spreading BS then I'll address it. As it often happens, some peoples toes get stepped on the facts come to light. I am not here for a popularity contest.

Back in post #164 you wrote this...



Which is at best an inaccurate account of what happened in the video. Then I called you on it. Then you come back with "... a second or two" which is closer to reality but still inaccurate. I have watched sequence several times, carefully following the time track The bear broke off the attack in less than a second form when it was initially sprayed. That's a fact.

BTW, there is nothing wrong with questioning someone's honesty. I did catch someone in these forums deliberately deceiving the members of this forum and they were almost immediately banned. I don't know you from Adam other than here in these forums. Out and out calling someone a liar without proof is a different which is something I never did. I can't read your mind or how it is that you don't get the facts straight. So I'll take you at your word that your inaccuracy is not intentional. So the only thing I can figure is that you are so biased that you can't/don't want to see the facts as they are.

Now I don't have a problem with being biased for guns. What has me scratching my head is the bias against spray, especially when you, as far as I know, have no first hand experience with spray, especially the newer products. How can you possibly make a sound judgment on something you know so little about?

It almost seems that some folks and their guns feel threatened by a product like spray. That is illogical. I certainly am not threatened. I love hunting, shooting and i love my guns. My signature tag says, "Molon Labe"... come and get them.



Bingo! Have I said anything different? Haven't I said this all along? Haven't I said this maybe a dozen times in this thread?

love the drama i do.

 

[army1975]

First off, I'm glad the chargers were dropped against this guy. As I already stated, being able to carry is a 2nd A right, inside or outside parks. Being able to carry but not being able to use the weapon in self defense is total BS. Good for him and good for the precedent the case set.

As far as the story goes, my first question is what type of spray did he have?

My next observation based on the reading is it sounds like he had both the spray and the 357 drawn, one in each hand. That seems a little odd to me. People usually carry either spray or a gun and seldom both but it is certainly possible he had both and if he was interviewed by the rangers on the spot it's probably true. But having both drawn at the same time seems odd.

I think it's possible that he discharged the spray at a greater distance than 15-25' and when the bear did not stop he fired the gun. If he waited to shoot a charging bear inside 15', that bear is basically on top of him.

Another observation is that the bear was not put down. In this case the bear fled, but bears don't always run when they're shot. "fight or flight".... sometimes flight.... and sometimes fight.

For all you semi auto fans, most of you are probably packing 40 S&W which is less potent than a 357 mag and IMO, a marginal round for killing bears. Like I mentioned before, my min would ba a 41 Mag shooting heavy hard cast bullets.

The guy only shot one round into the bear and now you have a wounded bear running around. I have no clue why he didn't pump more rounds into it. If you're going to shoot a bear, do your best to kill it.

Now I suppose some folks will say that this is proof that guns are better bear deterrence than spray. Not necessarily so. This is one anecdotal case with sketchy details. The study I linked earlier cites several case in which guns failed to sop bears from injuring or killing. I could surf the net for more cases. It has happened and it does happen. We could get into a ping pong match, you link this case and I link that one.... on and on ad nauseum. I'm not going to do that.

Bottom line, neither option is 100% full proof.

hopefully the feller had enough sense to of had bear spray instead of bed bug spray.

 

[army1975]

I went to school with this kid. This incident happened about 4-5 miles from my front door. The same front door that a bear killed a yearling Suffolk ewe about 50 feet from 2 falls ago.

I know too many people locally that have been attacked by bears and lived but some had to kill the bear. None got in trouble with the law.
Doctor bills are more then lawyer bills! I am going home to see my wife and kids, besides this is a long range hunting forum! Wth! What kind of spray can hit a bear at 600 yards anyways! Geez guys!
Buy more bullets!

read the question again. sometimes a bear is not 600 yards away and might not be a bear want to kill,

 

[rooster740]

Dude you come out of nowhere about something that was said years ago with an incoherent statement……
Speak English
"And might not want to be a bear want to kill,"
Huh????

 

[army1975]

Dude you come out of nowhere about something that was said years ago with an incoherent statement……
Speak English
"And might not want to be a bear want to kill,"
Huh????

`Dude, use common sense and figure it out, "and might not be a bear you want to kill". talking bout bars really up super close on ya, not 21,600" away.

 

[rooster740]

This is a 6 year old thread about self defense. If it is eating you, then I kill it.
If it is eating me, then I do my damnest to kill it.

Not sure how many bears you are around but I deal with them often.
the bottom line is survival of the fittest. If it hurts me then I hurt it back.

 

[army1975]

This is a 6 year old thread about self defense. If it is eating you, then I kill it.
If it is eating me, then I do my damnest to kill it.

Not sure how many bears you are around but I deal with them often.
the bottom line is survival of the fittest. If it hurts me then I hurt it back.

in that case, yeah, pop a cap or two in it's ***. heading should read "Up close encounter if attacked, bear spray vs bullets". my bad on looking beyond not being attacked. lol, see someone besides me still looks at older than dirt threads.

 

[Snyderite]

200 gr hard casts have less wind drift...

 

[rooster740]

200 gr hard casts have less wind drift...

Yes exactly! That is why I moved from a 5" 44 magnum to a 3" 357 j frame!
Less bullets = less weight= less rotational weight to counteract the target (bear) offset!

Plus a 110gr .357 bullet at 2800 fps means less wind drift at 3 feet of distance. = more deader hunting buddy= more food for griz before it comes after me!
BLAM
World is a better place now!

 

[Of001]

I used to ride chopper as part of my job, lots of Finn ex military. One guy did guide fly-ins for 30yr. His bear story when I asked why he didn't carry a gun:

Guy and his 2 sons were in northern BC hunting elk. They got a few dear, a moose and trophy elk. One son wanted to get a big Griz that had been hanging around for the week. So both sons stayed for another day.

Father had 2 close calls with this bear: on a dry river bed, he fired his gun at "very close range, click" misfire and the bear ran. It came again on one of their kills a few days later, they used an air horn and it ran.

The father had health issues so went back to town. The sons did not check in that night. On 2nd day no check in so he went out with the chopper. At the end of the 3rd day they called search and rescue. The father and my pilot found the men on the 5th or 6th day. The bear was shot with a combination of 3006-300 win calibers, according to the CO report, "a perfect heart shot, several non-brain head shots, and more in the critical vitals, it was dead on its feet by the time it got to the unfortunate men"

Both men were dead, one disembowled, the other with head trauma "outside of the military, I wouldn't have suspected that much damage". The bear was a few lengths away walking away from the attack.

They had killed it, but with the low heart rate it still managed to cover the distance and kill both men.

The pilot told me "strange noise and light will freak them out, its like getting surprised on shrooms, most amateurs inherently want to run. But slap a crack head in the face and see what happens"

I carry a mini airhorn and a pen light set to strobe. I've scared off 2 black bears, both small males, and a stalking mountain lion with the horn in the day and I presume a black bear at night with the light. I could hear it in the bush but couldn't see it

It's what he carried in the chopper so it's what I carry. Rifle as a LAST resort. With the bears in his area of operation and length of service, I trust his opinion. And most of the indigenous people I know hike/hunt with airhorns on their belts too.

 

[WildRose]

I used to ride chopper as part of my job, lots of Finn ex military. One guy did guide fly-ins for 30yr. His bear story when I asked why he didn't carry a gun:

Guy and his 2 sons were in northern BC hunting elk. They got a few dear, a moose and trophy elk. One son wanted to get a big Griz that had been hanging around for the week. So both sons stayed for another day.

Father had 2 close calls with this bear: on a dry river bed, he fired his gun at "very close range, click" misfire and the bear ran. It came again on one of their kills a few days later, they used an air horn and it ran.

The father had health issues so went back to town. The sons did not check in that night. On 2nd day no check in so he went out with the chopper. At the end of the 3rd day they called search and rescue. The father and my pilot found the men on the 5th or 6th day. The bear was shot with a combination of 3006-300 win calibers, according to the CO report, "a perfect heart shot, several non-brain head shots, and more in the critical vitals, it was dead on its feet by the time it got to the unfortunate men"

Both men were dead, one disembowled, the other with head trauma "outside of the military, I wouldn't have suspected that much damage". The bear was a few lengths away walking away from the attack.

They had killed it, but with the low heart rate it still managed to cover the distance and kill both men.

The pilot told me "strange noise and light will freak them out, its like getting surprised on shrooms, most amateurs inherently want to run. But slap a crack head in the face and see what happens"

I carry a mini airhorn and a pen light set to strobe. I've scared off 2 black bears, both small males, and a stalking mountain lion with the horn in the day and I presume a black bear at night with the light. I could hear it in the bush but couldn't see it

It's what he carried in the chopper so it's what I carry. Rifle as a LAST resort. With the bears in his area of operation and length of service, I trust his opinion. And most of the indigenous people I know hike/hunt with airhorns on their belts too.

All of them I know who live in bear country also carry a rifle and/or 12g with slugs too, particularly on years when their natural food sources are in short supply.