At what point does custom pay off?

[longrangehunterII]

Ok Guys, don't forget about the Mil-spec R5 SS models or the 700 Police version as well. I have a R5 SS in 223 w/the 24" Barrel, that said, Remington's recall trigger fix sucked! Waste of resources in shipping costs, the three months at Remington shop and the worst trigger fix, or trigger as a replacement. So you'll still need a good trigger.

The gun shot very well before their hands got on it and afterwards not what I had hoped for! So I sent it to GAP for a Huber 2 stage trigger, a bedding job, and have it threaded and timed for my BA Thunder Beast suppresser. Best thing is get them bedded properly and have a good trigger installed.

As good or should I say nice the H&S Precision stocks are they are not as good as the McMillan or Manners stocks for fit to the person, intended use and hight of comb, but they are far better then the tupperwear plastic stocks that are out there.

 

[mrb1982]

I went as far as to have an adjustable logger head chemise installed on my sendero. Great investment. If I do this next one custom I am planning for a greybull precision and I will probably have a cheek piece installed on it too. The cheek weld made all the difference especially when we get into those 50 mm and larger objectives

 

[mrb1982]

While I got some of you customguys here, would you go with a 28 or 30" barrel.? I will probably go with the 230gr bullets. I notice defensive edge uses the 30"barrel on their canyon rifle and I would assume with his experience level that he had a method to his madness. Anybody else have any thoughts.

 

[BountyHunter]

At what point do you RISK the shot or your hunt for an exceptional animal is the answer?

Yes, with some work and money, many factory guns can be made to shoot sub MOA and many around .5 MOA with careful load work up and good bench techniques. I have seen a 5R in 308 shoot in a 1000 yard Factory class that shot groups that beat 90% of the customs THAT DAY for regular BR guns.

I am a big proponent of the custom route after spending a lot of money converting 700s over too many years. The 700 has one huge flaw in the magnums that has bit me twice on hunts and that is the riveted extractor broke and I basically had a single shot. I had to carry and use a cleaning rod to remove the cases. Was it just the twists of that gun or what, but I will not go that route again. Switched to a PTG bolt and I would trust it anywhere now but it is not as smooth as my customs.

When it is all over with a "fully reworked" 700 will cost as much as a custom and be worth half and be half as smooth and reliable. Yet you can add a good trigger, bedding, lug work at least and stand a 50/50 or more chance of having a good shooter for most people.

Got to admit, for a cost conscious hunter that wants as close to custom as he can get, the Savages are a pretty easy way to go. Pre fit match grade barrels, decent triggers, and changeable bolt heads certainly allow many options with rifles that are very consistent shooters as the norm to start with.

I have and have had numerous sendoros that will more than work with bedding, trigger, lugs etc without full action jobs. Just will not trust the Remington magnum bolts anymore though for serious hunting guns without changing to a PTG bolt and M16 extractor.

If money is not the object, obviously go with the custom and never look back. The smoothness, and reliability are a huge factor when it comes time to pull the trigger. However, If you are shooting 500 and under, you can tweak numerous factory guns to get you there. I just shot two deer Tuesday with a 6 lb worked over Model 600 Mohawk in 7-08 factory mountain rifle barrel on it and with Edge stock that shoots 3/4 to 1" with my old standard load of H414 and 120 Btips and that is plenty for what it is designed for.

As for the numerous "internet magical 1/4 MOA" guns, the shooters at BR central have had a standing offer of $500 to anyone that can bring one to a BR match and shoot 5 consecutive 5 shot groups of .250. Last I knew, no one had ever collected that $500 yet. I have watched friends change guns and barrels like women's dresses to find that exceptional good shooter for factory class guns in matches.

We have all shot an occasional wonder group, but that does not make it the norm.

 

[J E Custom]

I shoot a 7RM Sendero that shoots .5 moa even out long. We all like the custom guns and nice stuff, but for hunting purposes, when does the added accuracy and maybe couple extra inches of barrel start to pay off? No specific circumstances just curious what people's thoughts are. Could a guy who can get a sendero 300rum for example to 1/2 moa notice the difference at say 1500 yds for hunting purposes. I am interested in what people think about this. I don't really have an opinion one way or the other so I am looking for something to sway me.

After reading "All of the replies" most of the questions have been answered one way or the other
and lots of opinions have been shared. (Which is good). So at this point the question was would a
1/2 moa rifle be good enough for 1500 yard shooting. Yes !!! But a 1/4 MOA would be twice as good
if you get my drift.

So the question should probably be, what is your expected/excepted accuracy level. If 1MOA
is good enough then save your money. If 1/2 MOA is your acceptable level of accuracy, you
may have a chance to get a factory rifle that will do that. If a 1/4 MOA rifle is what you want/expect
your odds of finding a factory rifle capable of that level of accuracy are Slim to None. Less than a 1/4 MOA requires that everything be as near as perfect as possible. and even a Custom rifle has difficulty in this environment and requires perfect ammo as well.

I realize that many rifles will never get less than 1/10 MOA (-.100 thousandths) but it is possible and can happen with good Custom rifles. So Like many on this site, I try to squeeze every .001 from my rifles to find out just what the rifle is capable of, so if I want to shoot something in the eye at 200 yards I know the rifle will do it if I do my part.

Just because a person does not shoot beyond 300 yards doesn't mean a 1/2 MOA or better, could not help.

I have 4 rifles that will shoot under 1/10 of an inch. (Everyone of them is a custom)I also have some that will shoot under 1/4 MOA and I have a few that struggle to stay under 1/2 MOA. I don't have to tell anyone which rifles are my go to rifles unless I have a specific use/need for the others.

What accuracy is good enough? that is the question each person has to decide for them selves.
How to get it is the big question/debate.

Just my opinion

J E CUSTOM

 

[KYpatriot]

Like many here I have both custom and factory rifles, mostly of course I reach for the rifle built exactly the way I wanted it. When you buy a car you are looking for more than just a performance figure...you don't go into a dealership and say I'll take any car that will go at least 80 mph. Same with buying a custom rifle.

If accuracy is truly your only desire and half moa is what you need then you can find a factory rifle that will do it. I have a rem 5r that is consistently half moa, and often in the .2s and .3s. In fact I have recorded every five shot group that it has ever fired and the running average is .6 moa, and that includes every group fired in load work ups fir several different bullets, so the true average with the load I developed for it would be less.

The thing is, it may take a few tries to find that, but if your budget is tight it can be done with a little legwork.. With a custom, you get what you want right up front.

I'll say this, when shooting long range in the field the inherent accuracy of the rifle concerns people more than it really should relative to other factors.

All other things being equal, choosing the more accurate rifle is obvious. But in real life all things are never equal.

For example, if my life depended on making a 1000 yard shot and I had to chose between a 1 moa factory 7 mm mag shooting berger 180 hybrids and the 1/2 moa 308 5r with 175 smks I just mentioned I'd chose the 7mm in a heartbeat. When you consider the rifle, bullet, shooter, and the wind as a system you will find that other variables can quickly overtake the inherent accuracy of a barrel.

If you can call the wind out to 1000 yards to 2 mph, are already shooting super high BC bullets, have a proven high quality precision scope, and are skilled in your fundamentals of marksmanship then you would likely immediately see better scores/ hits at long range by upgrading to an inherently more precise rifle. The fewer of those things you are already doing, the less a custom will help until you can do them.

If you have to prioritize purchases like I do then the money for a custom might be better spent on a long range shooting school to improve your fundamentals. Or on ammo to shoot more often so that you can call the wind better. Just getting a little bit better at calling the wind will yield much more benefit than going from 1 moa to 1/2 moa. Id take a high quality scope on a factory rifle over a lower quality less repeatable scope mounted on a custom any day. Like I already said, I'd take a factory high bc cartridge combo over a benchrest quality 308 if there is much wind at all.

If you've got the cash set aside for it then do it all and go custom with a high performance cartridge and shoot the barrel out if it!!

 

[The Oregonian]

For me it was a slight twist on the rest of the thought process.

I used to hunt deer in undergrad quite a bit but never shot accurately after developing a flinch and losing confidence.

Fast forward 15 yrs later and I wanted to get back into deer hunting and rifle shooting as a hobby - it fits well with the limited time I have with 2 kids under 10. So I wanted to know what was me vs what's was the rifle. When shooting over the last two years with my factory A-Bolt 270 with factory ammo, I could get 1.5 MOA at best. I wasn't sure if it was me or the rifle and ammo combo.

I also wanted a rifle that was exactly the way I wanted it. I like to order new cars from the factory with the exact specs I like...just me I guess, but it like to get everything to my specs if spending a premium dollar.

With a custom and reloads, I know what the rifle is capable of and therefore a loss of accuracy is on me, not the gun. It let's me know what to work on.

I also feel a different level of attachment to a custom - I won't ever sell it and will let my son hunt with it someday. I can always have it rebarreled for $700 or so if I want to change calibers (using the same bolt face).

I was at a point in iLife where I could drop $5k on a rifle, so I did it. No regrets.

 

[MMERSS]

So at this point the question was would a 1/2 moa rifle be good enough for 1500 yard shooting. Yes !!! But a 1/4 MOA would be twice as good if you get my drift.

To expand on J E CUSTOM's post, if a person is looking at the printed surface area a ¼" gun is four times better, that is four times less square inches in group potential, than a ½" gun. FOUR TIMES less surface area for each ½ difference in group radius. After all, it's hitting the surface area of the vitals that we are after.

 

[Bigeclipse]

I absolutely did read your post. I had a Sendero SFII in 220 swift and it did shoot well. If I had the money to do both (buy a Sendero or build a custom), I would just build a custom rifle. I am not much of a gambler though if I could do both anyway. If I didn't have the money then I would buy the Sendero and be happy with it because they are a good factory rifle. Maybe we are misunderstanding each other though.

I shoot a lot past 1000 yards and have been recently working up to 2000 yards so the custom was worth it to me. But I do honestly believe that a factory rifle can do well out to even 800 yards and maybe even 1000 yards (never shot a factory rifle that far). But I had the money so I decided to go custom.

Korhil,
I definitely see your point. If I decided tomorrow that I wanted to start shooting past 600 yards (especially 1000-2000 yards you speak of) I would first see if any rifle I have can do it. If not (which would probably be the case), then you are right...I would probably save for a full blown custom because at those distances it seems like you MUST have .5 MOA and more likely less if possible. This would mean either being VERY lucky with a factory rifle or spending a good deal more money making that factory rifle shoot to those capabilities. I was just stating that of all the senderos I have read and seen, and some savage long range hunters/police models and tikkas, I have actually witnessed 1/2 MOA out to 400 yards and the ES and SD from chronographs showing that the chances they will maintain this to 600+ yards may be very good. There are also many people here, snipers hide, and savage shooters who claim to have factory rifles shooting this well out to 800+ yards. Are they B.S.ing .....they could be. I honestly am new to longer range shooting (2 years now) and I really value everyone's advice here. I did not mean to sound like I was misunderstanding you. I was just saying if I knew my limits were 600 yards, I would probably just buy a sendero, or build another savage myself again and roll the dice too whether it is good enough. If I was doing 600+ yards then id start to highly consider a custom.

 

[mrb1982]

Lots of goods points here. I think you talked me into the custom. Some good points about calling the wind in there too. I am gonna keep my sendero so I can let my kids shoot or someday. Worth the brake it will be perfect for them to start shooting long range on if they want. Then I well have a big ole boomer that I customized myself which will be cool. I think I can manage the recoil with a good brake and take care of my barrel and have a dandy of a gun and never worry about it being too far away unless it is my skills limiting, not the gun.

 

[Korhil78]

If you get a brake, you won't have to manage hardly any recoil. My 338 Lapua shooting 300 gr Bergers kicks less than a 30-06.

BigEclipse,

No worries. I don't see myself as more experienced than anyone else either. Just lucky enough to have access to a place where I can shoot really long distances. We are all stating our opinions on this thread. Our opinions won't be the same, thus the discussion. It is good for the OP to get different opinions and the discussion that goes along with it because it gives him options and reasons for picking that option.

 

[Bigeclipse]

If you get a brake, you won't have to manage hardly any recoil. My 338 Lapua shooting 300 gr Bergers kicks less than a 30-06.

BigEclipse,

No worries. I don't see myself as more experienced than anyone else either. Just lucky enough to have access to a place where I can shoot really long distances. We are all stating our opinions on this thread. Our opinions won't be the same, thus the discussion. It is good for the OP to get different opinions and the discussion that goes along with it because it gives him options and reasons for picking that option.

eh I definitely maybe changing my opinions a bit. Again, I am new to long range so I was just expressing the very little experiences I have joined with the research I have done. For me, I think I will stick with building savages but again, I am only shooting to 500 yards currently. I don't see myself shooting past 600 to 700 yards anytime soon as I don't have access but if I do in the future I think id be saving for a custom.

 

[mrb1982]

If you get a brake, you won't have to manage hardly any recoil. My 338 Lapua shooting 300 gr Bergers kicks less than a 30-06.

BigEclipse,

No worries. I don't see myself as more experienced than anyone else either. Just lucky enough to have access to a place where I can shoot really long distances. We are all stating our opinions on this thread. Our opinions won't be the same, thus the discussion. It is good for the OP to get different opinions and the discussion that goes along with it because it gives him options and reasons for picking that option.

I know what you are saying about the muzzle brake. The one on my 7RM isn't even that loud. If I was shooting off a bench with an roof over the top, yeah, loud. But in the field in a hunting situation, I don't notice it that bad. I am sure the 300 RUM will be alittle louder though. They tell me a brake takes them down to around a 270.

eh I definitely maybe changing my opinions a bit. Again, I am new to long range so I was just expressing the very little experiences I have joined with the research I have done. For me, I think I will stick with building savages but again, I am only shooting to 500 yards currently. I don't see myself shooting past 600 to 700 yards anytime soon as I don't have access but if I do in the future I think id be saving for a custom.

If I were in your situation, I would stick with the factory stuff too. For me, the purpose of the 300 RUM is to shoot 1000yds and over. Therefore I think I will enjoy the custom.

Take home points I have concluded for my own preferences from this thread so far:

-I don't need a fluted barrel for my purposes. Non-fluted sendero contour is what I want to go with. Probably 28", but maybe 30", we'll see.
-custom is as much about confidence as it is about quality

I am a little undecided on a stock. I would really like to put a nice laminate on, but it is going to be a using gun, so synthetic always trumps in that area. Although my brother in law has a 223 laminate that he has had as his ranch gun, probably never been in his house more than 5 days it's whole life, bouncing around the rocks, and only has a few small scratches in it. It holds up pretty good. This leads me to believe that I could probably handle one. We'll see I guess. If I go with a synthetic, I will most likely go with a Greybull Precision. Otherwise, it will be some sort of laminate. My concern would be if while carrying it with a strap, if it rubs on a zipper or something crazy like that, scratching it all up. Haven't really decided what would be the best way to go I guess. If anybody has any advice or elaboration on the stock situation, that would be great.

Jewel Trigger
Tactical bolt knob
Probably a Extended mag box so I don't have to shoot it single shot
Can't decide on 215's or 230's. Like the thought of the 230, but ballistically the 215 does pretty compareable with a little flatter inside of 1000yds where a majority of my shots will be for the most part. I got a while to debate that though.

Then some glass and I will be good to go. Either a Leupold or NF. I have a Leupold VX-3 6.5-20 with a target dot on my 7RM that works really well. Might just buy a twin to that one for this build.

This thread has helped solidify a lot of things in my head and give me more confidence in the direction I am going. Thank you all.

Always room for more advice if anybody has any opinion to pipe in.

I will be making this a multi year project. I will accumulate the products I want/need over the next 2-3 years. Then take it to the smith and have him do the work the year after that probably. As discussed by a couple people earlier, it is hard to drop all that money at one time so if you can ration it out over time, it should work out. In the meantime, I have a good LR gun that will allow me to learn and hone skills.

 

[Standbanger]

If I reloaded I would have a custom rifle. I can't see owning a true custom that I can't get the benefit of the rifles accuaracy because I don't reload. I would reload but as soon as I discovered how much I liked rifles and shooting the well dried up for ammo/reloading supplies and equipment. I have spent most of my life bowhunting and long range was 30 yards. I had 6.5 Grendel for a while but traded it for a Savage 110 Max 1 Predator in 6.5 CM. I purchased a Leopold MK4 Scope that in hindsight I should have researched a little more before making that purchase. I would love to have a custom in 7mm Mag.