Are wolves really the problem

[Snowrun]

I havent posted to this forum much because i haven't felt i had much to contribute to the long range discussions, however, wolves brought me to this site due to the desire to know exactly where i can hit one of these cowards at long range first shot.
Not trying to brag, take my words for what you will but i have put in more back country miles off trail than most would dream of. Last weekend i put in a hike in 10'58" that I was told was not humanly possible in 12'50", my first time several years ago.
I have killed mature bulls most years and have hunted antlers from the bitterroot to the paradise valley and beyond. I have seen the impact of these predators.
All arguments aside regarding the correct species being reintroduced, these predators came from hunting caribou and moose in open range and were let loose on an elk population that has never had to deal with any predator this voracious nor this blood thirsty.
I have personally talked to the biologist for the Paradise Valley who told me years ago of a 10%/year reduction in the herd. Counts of 130 bulls on the Emigrant Peak range went to a handful, now next to nothing. I have seen multiple kills where very little is eaten & the pack move on to fresh killing grounds. Teaching young? wanton waste? i dont know but the end result is the same. Imagine having to watch your back 24/7 much less worry about your young whom you have so much invested in.
Those of you spewing the pro-wolf pre-packaged points regarding poaching, excessive hunting kills, bears, cougars etc. need to spend more time in the real woods & less time at the environmentalist propaganda tables set up in Yellowstone & elsewhere tailored for your mindset that is willing to accept any feel-good garbage that makes these killers seem to fit the ecosystem.
While a managed population of the correct species to fit the area may be acceptable, we were all lied to about "recovery populations" and my advice to any and all states that are considering an agreement of this type is to resist any effort at "reintroduction", they will lie to get their foot in the door & stab you in the back. These are not honorable people, we learned the hard way in MT.
See attached, I have personally witnessed the wanton waste these pack mentality cowards propagate. The bull in the photos was less than 1/4 mile from his winter range of the previous year, I have his shed horns. the blood trail in the snow was sickening. Imagine trying to keep your feet under you while a gang member takes cheap shots at your guts & groin. One on one, they wont risk it but like most cowards, will distract while another takes a cheap shot to promote blood loss & eventually weakness.
At least a cat will kill quickly and eat what it kills so that argument in my opinion is out the window. Bears, might not be popular but I think we need to remove the requirement to use the meat, especially in wilderness areas. I saw 5 bears in 2 days last year, cant tell me they don't impact calf numbers but there's no way I'm packing meat I don't personally enjoy 7+ miles. If it was a rug & skull yeah, greasy meat, no, just my opinion.
If I need to be excluded from this site for any of the above comments, let me know from someone with a serious number of posts & I'll not be seen here again. This is one subject that I am happy to say my peace & move on.
Shaun

 

[sp6x6]

The predators are the main in my are but we, according to F&G have always had a hard time with native tacking elk and moose and NOT on reservation. I know a guy in he mid 40's that is native and he is at pushing 50 bulls, that doesnt count the numerous cows he takes. I have close friends in F&G and yes it is a real problem in MT and ID

 

[MMERSS]

Varying associated groups and individuals will have different views on their definition of conservation be it predator or ungulate. For myself, I will acquire two elk tags and three wolf tags this season. I presume I'm taking a "conservative" effort toward managing both species according to the maximum limit of legal harvest afforded in my state. Ironically I was content with the two elk tag option ten years ago and not having to consider a wolf harvest. Obviously time can't be rolled back. I now must consider "conservation" in today's hunting realm when purchasing harvest tags be it for predator or ungulate. ):

 

[Snowrun]

Not sure if that was a reply to my comment regarding tribe harvest. Yes, Native harvest can get extreme in localized areas. I do not agree with killing moose cow/calf pairs loaded whole & transported during august north for hours but this is minor compared to a 24/7 hunt by indiscriminate predators.
I would like to see the transport distance of the average tribal kill, i guarantee that it is in the under 1/4 mile mark. How does that translate to populations dropping for an entire district? They may reduce numbers close to roads which you may experience if thats your mode, but they do very little to affect populations in the back country.
If moose/elk are pressured close to roads, they move, simple as that. If that doesn't make sense, I am sorry but you need to see what happens in the middle of nowhere.
regards
Shaun

 

[Snowrun]

Might not be a popular stance, but I would like to see a 6 point or better harvest requirement and no cow tags allowed unless a wolf permit is issued to the applicant.
This should be lifted immediately upon wolf populations dropping to levels agreed upon in good faith by local sportsmen. By the way, wolf tag prices should be minimal & if you have a general deer tag that is useless in the district you are hunting, you should be able to use that for any predator. Cant justify killing a cow if you're not willing to take out your competition. Might up the ante for those on the fence as far as wolf populations. Do you really want to forego the season just to let the pack of dogs take what should be in your freezer.
Personally, I love the experience of being out there & love to have a mature bull show me that he still holds the aces & sends me home with nothing but a smile for the beating. The harvest is just a bonus to add to the pictures and video from the season.
Trust me, looking for that specific number of points will make you a much more calm and effective hunter in the long run.

 

[Snowrun]

By The Way, best way to solve the non-sport over harvest by tribes is to move game animals away from roads. Harassment of wildlife is justified to protect from unfair harvest in my opinion. I would gladly pay a fine if it meant a cow/calf moose wasn't shot august 1st by someone with no grasp of conservation.
If you truly need help, I would gladly fill your freezer, pay for your health insurance and any other basic necessities. but for the grace of God , go I.
If you have been raised to take from those of us who work to provide the tax dollars that you squander, I have no pity nor compassion for you. Work, no matter how menial, builds character that our country is severely lacking, but i regress. This thread started on wolves & their pack mentality, & taking what is easy & not earned. Coincidence that some will defend that side of the equation, no, sad, yes.

 

[longrangehuntr]

Wow, so if something is illegal it doesn't happen? Tracking herds of elk to take out the predators and not having a single person come into contact means that no one else was tracking that herd. I grew up in Idaho and live in Washington and see the NA take more than their share. Im sure that GF have lots of technology to catch poachers if they were out there checking hunters. It seems like there are GF every mile on the base here but you go off the base you don't see a single GF. You can't tell me that ranchers dont move the elk away from cattle grazing areas in montana and wyoming? Yes the name of this forum is "are wolves the problem" and that is why I asked that question here. No where near being a liberal and that is just down right hurtful being called that. Liberals give guns to drug cartels and cover up an embassy being destroyed. I saw first hand in new mexico, the gemsbok was transplanted on the white sands missile range and grew to 9000 strong without any predators except hunters to control them. They get up to about 800 pounds and horns that are 40 inches long. With the subjective media and far left and right groups I don't believe everything i see, hear and read in the media. I asked the questions for answers not to be called ignorant. The only ignorance here is that people think that if something is illegal that it doesn't happen or that it would make big news if it does happen. Ill refer you to an embassy being destroyed and drug cartels having guns given to them which were used to kill an american border patrol agent. The hardly made any news so why in the world would someone chasing some elk make the news? countless pronghorn, mule deer and elk found dead with just the heads removed. Not once was it mentioned in the news. Based on the experience of those that commented it is in fact the wolves that are killing everything and we should all do our part to reduce the number of wolves, bears and coyotes. A side note, when someone doesnt come right out and believe what you say try not to let your feelings get hurt. I will do my best to read every news article that you attach.

 

[longrangehuntr]

Might not be a popular stance, but I would like to see a 6 point or better harvest requirement and no cow tags allowed unless a wolf permit is issued to the applicant.
This should be lifted immediately upon wolf populations dropping to levels agreed upon in good faith by local sportsmen. By the way, wolf tag prices should be minimal & if you have a general deer tag that is useless in the district you are hunting, you should be able to use that for any predator. Cant justify killing a cow if you're not willing to take out your competition. Might up the ante for those on the fence as far as wolf populations. Do you really want to forego the season just to let the pack of dogs take what should be in your freezer.
Personally, I love the experience of being out there & love to have a mature bull show me that he still holds the aces & sends me home with nothing but a smile for the beating. The harvest is just a bonus to add to the pictures and video from the season.
Trust me, looking for that specific number of points will make you a much more calm and effective hunter in the long run.

I am all for that as well since people seem to want to shoot anything. Antler restrictions will only help the quality of all wildlife. having to shoot predators as well only makes hunting better.

 

[bigngreen]

Wow, so if something is illegal it doesn't happen? Tracking herds of elk to take out the predators and not having a single person come into contact means that no one else was tracking that herd. I grew up in Idaho and live in Washington and see the NA take more than their share. Im sure that GF have lots of technology to catch poachers if they were out there checking hunters. It seems like there are GF every mile on the base here but you go off the base you don't see a single GF. You can't tell me that ranchers dont move the elk away from cattle grazing areas in montana and wyoming? Yes the name of this forum is "are wolves the problem" and that is why I asked that question here. No where near being a liberal and that is just down right hurtful being called that. Liberals give guns to drug cartels and cover up an embassy being destroyed. I saw first hand in new mexico, the gemsbok was transplanted on the white sands missile range and grew to 9000 strong without any predators except hunters to control them. They get up to about 800 pounds and horns that are 40 inches long. With the subjective media and far left and right groups I don't believe everything i see, hear and read in the media. I asked the questions for answers not to be called ignorant. The only ignorance here is that people think that if something is illegal that it doesn't happen or that it would make big news if it does happen. Ill refer you to an embassy being destroyed and drug cartels having guns given to them which were used to kill an american border patrol agent. The hardly made any news so why in the world would someone chasing some elk make the news? countless pronghorn, mule deer and elk found dead with just the heads removed. Not once was it mentioned in the news. Based on the experience of those that commented it is in fact the wolves that are killing everything and we should all do our part to reduce the number of wolves, bears and coyotes. A side note, when someone doesnt come right out and believe what you say try not to let your feelings get hurt. I will do my best to read every news article that you attach.

What a pile of BS, I'm a sixth generation ranch land Montanan and I have never seen a rancher push elk or deer from grazing ground, I have shoot piles of elk in a hay field to try to keep them back so we would have hay but NEVER have I seen or heard of a rancher moving elk herds on range ground. I've never know anyone to push elk while checking cows, I've drove past thousands of elk on my way to stock the sheep herders camp and never once did it cross my mind to push the elk, nobody gives a rats rear end, it's just liberal anti rancher propaganda, PERIOD!!! Hell most of them are making as much money from elk or more than from cattle, all the livestock water that ranchers have developed have grew the elk population, I've spent many a summer fencing of riparian areas just for the elk, paid for by the ranchers.
The only reason elk are doing well in our area is it's ranch country, we shoot wolves on sight and let elk come down and feed on the fields, my boss has 1200 plus head of elk on his pivots for 3-4 months which comes out to 40-60,000 dollars worth of hay plus the fence the elk tear up but it's worth it because the elk are doing awesome even when they take a few hundred every year.
I grew up working outside in the mountains on a ranch, every day, you know every vehicle that comes into the valley, hear every shot and find all kinds of stuff while traveling through the area on horse or foot. I have found exactly ONE poached bull elk in my life time, shot in the hay field and I must have spooked them when I came up the road to move pipe because they did start to gutt it but then just took of with the head. I have never seen and Indian other than my buddy kill an elk and guess what, he uses the same tags I do and that's all he takes and all any of them I know take and he gets check by the game warden just like the rest of us!!

 

[longrangehuntr]

Galt Ranch, one of the largest in Montana with more than 3,500 cattle, 100 horses and 100,000 acres, is so vast Bill Galt manages it from the sky in his helicopter. The helicopter helps Bill keep an eye on his land and cattle, hunt predators and move elk herds that devour his cattle's food supply. He believes technology is the future of ranching and necessary to run a ranch of this size. Galt said that the size of the elk herd on his property is now around 2,500 head and they have developed a taste for cultivated crops. The elk are destroying his irrigation pivots and it is nearly impossible to drive them away because of beaver dams, brush and swamp. He said they move cattle by using helicopters and feel that they would be successful moving elk that way.

http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/poaching/price.html

More than 57 bull elk poached in montana

http://fwp.mt.gov/news/newsReleases/enforcement/nr_0063.html

11 bull elk poached

http://www.city-data.com/forum/washington/547235-tribal-hunters-wiping-out-elk-herds.html

Tribal hunters wiping out elk herds.

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php?topic=76930.20;wap2

Direct quote for a native American- Being a Native American from the plains, I am CONSTANTLY outraged by the local tribes and regulations of the Pacific Northwest. This areas laws and regulations concerning the tribal actions are a farse in my view. The hunting and fishing regulations that govern the tribes need IMMEDIATE action to be brought into the modern era. The overall "free for all" access and restrictions are doing damage not only to the wildlife but to the views of society concerning tribal actions.
We preach equality, but we fail to hold everyone to the same standards, and this is WRONG. The poaching issues are not an isolated problem, and the fish nets and snagging continue to create problems across the board. In my opinion this is a simple case of people wanting stuff for free, without regulation, without repercussions.
I am not saying that every Indian of the PNW tribes is poaching, or snagging, or doing something wrong. I am stating that as long as we allow the rules to be different, then there are going to be those individuals that ABUSE the system. And those individuals need to be STOPPED!

Just how many elk do you shoot and do you have tags for these elk? Are these kills/harvests reported to fish and game? A couple hundred killed along with hunting season combined with harsh winters, lack of food since the elk get shot if they go for the hay along with bears, wolves, mnt lions and poachers all add up to the decline of the elk population.

 

[cohunter14]

Galt Ranch, one of the largest in Montana with more than 3,500 cattle, 100 horses and 100,000 acres, is so vast Bill Galt manages it from the sky in his helicopter. The helicopter helps Bill keep an eye on his land and cattle, hunt predators and move elk herds that devour his cattle's food supply. He believes technology is the future of ranching and necessary to run a ranch of this size. Galt said that the size of the elk herd on his property is now around 2,500 head and they have developed a taste for cultivated crops. The elk are destroying his irrigation pivots and it is nearly impossible to drive them away because of beaver dams, brush and swamp. He said they move cattle by using helicopters and feel that they would be successful moving elk that way.

http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/poaching/price.html

More than 57 bull elk poached in montana

http://fwp.mt.gov/news/newsReleases/enforcement/nr_0063.html

11 bull elk poached

http://www.city-data.com/forum/washington/547235-tribal-hunters-wiping-out-elk-herds.html

Tribal hunters wiping out elk herds.

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php?topic=76930.20;wap2

Direct quote for a native American-Being a Native American from the plains, I am CONSTANTLY outraged by the local tribes and regulations of the Pacific Northwest. This areas laws and regulations concerning the tribal actions are a farse in my view. The hunting and fishing regulations that govern the tribes need IMMEDIATE action to be brought into the modern era. The overall "free for all" access and restrictions are doing damage not only to the wildlife but to the views of society concerning tribal actions.
We preach equality, but we fail to hold everyone to the same standards, and this is WRONG. The poaching issues are not an isolated problem, and the fish nets and snagging continue to create problems across the board. In my opinion this is a simple case of people wanting stuff for free, without regulation, without repercussions.
I am not saying that every Indian of the PNW tribes is poaching, or snagging, or doing something wrong. I am stating that as long as we allow the rules to be different, then there are going to be those individuals that ABUSE the system. And those individuals need to be STOPPED!

Just how many elk do you shoot and do you have tags for these elk? Are these kills/harvests reported to fish and game? A couple hundred killed along with hunting season combined with harsh winters, lack of food since the elk get shot if they go for the hay along with bears, wolves, mnt lions and poachers all add up to the decline of the elk population.

Again, that was 57 bull elk over a 10 year period (2000-2009) in the one article, I didn't look at the other. Not saying that it isn't a lot, but it is less than 6 elk a year. I am pretty sure one wolf could easily be responsible for doing that. I am not saying that poaching isn't a problem, just that it isn't nearly as responsible in reducing a heard.

 

[longrangehuntr]

I am looking at the long term effects. It is only 57 elk but i figure, a mature bull elk might have a harem of 10-20 cows each. My math is this, 57 bull elk, 50% will be mature bulls so lets just say 30 bulls. They each have a harem of 20 cows which only 50% survive. looking at roughly 300 elk potentially lost through just poaching. add the loss of elk through normal hunting, predators, harsh winters and ranchers dropping elk left and right and that is why the elk herds have low numbers.

 

[cohunter14]

I am looking at the long term effects. It is only 57 elk but i figure, a mature bull elk might have a harem of 10-20 cows each. My math is this, 57 bull elk, 50% will be mature bulls so lets just say 30 bulls. They each have a harem of 20 cows which only 50% survive. looking at roughly 300 elk potentially lost through just poaching. add the loss of elk through normal hunting, predators, harsh winters and ranchers dropping elk left and right and that is why the elk herds have low numbers.

I don't follow the math...so if a heard bull is killed, half his harem dies?

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I know Bill Galt and he is a great guy in my limited dealings with him. I gave him a bid for a hanger he wanted to build at the White Sulpher Springs Airport for his helicopter and plane. The last I knew, he was leasing out elk hunting rights to outfitters.

Once again you will note, that IF he was to use his helicopter, it would be for hazing elk away form his hay fields... NOT for rounding them up and driving them to a specific location.

I am not calling you a liberal, but I will tell you that your reasoning is in line with what liberals will say to deflect attention from the REALITY of what wolves are doing to our elk! I never said poaching doesn't exist... I did say it is less than trivial compared to the impact wolves are having. READ THIS CAREFULLY... one wolf pack will do more damage to elk populations in one year than ALL the poachers have done in the last 20 years in this state and there are dozens of wolf packs roaming this country and on their way to your country. DO YOU GET IT??? Do you understand? Wolves are by far the biggest problem we have concerning elk populations.

Your articles site maybe a couple hundred animals poached over the last 10-20 years. BIG FRIGGIN DEAL! THAT IS NOTHING COMPARED TO WHAT WOLVES ARE DOING!!! Poaching has been going on since there was game laws. Poaching was going on when the Northern Yellowstone elk herd was 19,000 strong. From the time wolves were introduced, that herd began a steady decline and poaching/Native Americans HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!

You think you have a problem with poachers and Indians in Washington? Think again... wolves are coming your way and are already arriving and will continue to breed and multiply and YOUR RHETORIC will only aid the liberal bastards in their agenda to propagate the blood thirsty vermin. You will know the REAL problem soon enough.


here ya go....