Progression of ELR Community

[Deleted member 46119]

Sorta like this one, lolol

Takes the fun out of verifying your drop tables.

 

[Greyfox]

I think you'll see shooters start splitting into classes............Personally what I'm looking for from ELR is using enough tech to supplement shooting skills not replace as many skills as possible though I understand that side.

I have a similar viewpoint and sentiment. I believe shooters/hunters tend to Class themselves by a defined "method". I personally shoot long range (and some ELR), but my "method" is to use current technology to hunt my preferred game animals to approximately 1200 yards using a set of personally defined tools and skills. Perhaps this will change once again in my lifetime. Twenty years ago shooting a whitetail at 1000 yards was an impossibility for me. I certainly admire those that can hit a target at +1 mile, but that is currently outside my personal definition, or method. However, having had a career in the technology field, I like to follow the advancements in shooting technology as it will provide a window into the future. I also believe that the motivation of these technology advancements have little to do with enhancing the shooting skills or sport. The majority of these advancements tend to be driven by "warfare superiority". The goal is to eliminate as much human intervention as possible. Many of these advancements may eventually be applied to shooters and hunters in a practical format, but it takes quite a while and certainly eliminates some form of required skill, or may replace it with another. For example, range estimation through the Viet Nam conflict required rare and exceptionally talented individuals for effectiveness. By the time of the Middle East conflicts, sophisticated rangefinders for the most part eliminated this skill requirement. It took 20 more years for us to get our hands on a practical rangefinder that one could afford for long range hunting use. Development seems to take a long time. A more recent example..... took a manufacturer(SIG) 5+ years to offer an alternative to the Gunwerks G7 calculating RF!
While I certainly understand, and take nothing away from those that participate in the fascinating ELR rechnology, I think delivering these advancements will require a whole lot of time to deliver them in a practical format. And then, we will each have to decide whether or not they fit into our methods. IMO

 

[THEIS]

Hello,

So what is your opinions and/or comments as to what direction you think the next advancement in projectiles and projectile designs will be?

THEIS

 

[alcesgigas]

Theis:
Name is reminiscent of WWII, the legend, Oerlikon 20mm cannons festooned in every space in US Pacific carriers; they were attributed to be the most effective "discouragement" to the Kamikaze. They took the divine out of the wind...

 

[THEIS]

my prediction is, 2017 IS the year for ELR development. There is already groups defining standards, and COF's to credit accuracy and reputability. There were 3 meetings at shot too.

Gear is in development. Some breathtaking. But so is the price and much is not available to civilians yet.

I am very excited. To say the least.

Jeff

Hello,

2017 might seem to be the year of ELR development but as we all know "ELR" has and will always be in constant state of development That is part of its' charm. If you are not looking for the development 3-5 years from now you are basically at a stand still.

Those 3 meetings at Shot seem to have been more divisive to the ELR world than beneficial. At least at this point in time because we have group A thinking they have rights to determine what is and what is not, we have group B thinking they should have control over standards this and standards that, we have group C at odds with both group A and B because each of the other groups think the other group is trying to monetize the ELR world instead of truly advancing it.

Have we ever set back and wondered why Oscars' URSA has not been "taken in" as the standard by any of these new emerging groups of ELR "Control"?? It is because Oscar was years ahead in his thinking and laying his program out and in doing so he made it super hard for any individual and/or commercial entity to monetize enough from it to make it worth while for them. Now rather if he done that on purpose or not....KUDOS to him. I see URSA growth as the organic growth baseline to really see what ELR shooters will and will not embrace; unlike some of the other "groups" that I see as paid growth and in that we will only see growth in a direction the monetizing entity desires.
For example I do not look to see advancements in projectile(s) from a control group that is "headed" by a bullet company. I do not look to see advancements in number of participants at a "match" from a match that is controlled by a group that hand picks the match participants. Etc Etc Etc
These new emerging groups are acting as if they are the first to do this or that; rather than concentrating on purely advancing the ELR world and its' shooters.
In My Opinion that is....

Notice that back in 1998 when the original Cheytac & Assoc company hit the shooting world they do not try and govern how, when and what the ELR community should do. They put their products out and let people do with them as they desired.

Notice we do not see Vetronix attempting to determine what ELR is and is not; even though they have been in the ELR support equipment industry way longer than some other entities.

Bottom line (For me that is)..once a commercial entity or person directly connected to a commercial entity starts attempting to "write the rules" of this vs that; then we stop traveling the open road of growth/advancement and begin traveling a road designated strictly for that commercial entities growth/advancement.

I am ALL for commercial entities utilizing ELR community to advance their equipment and such (As they have for years) but I am not for a commercial entity attempting to control the ELR community for the sake of their companies growth.

THEIS

 

[Broz]

THEIS, I hear and understand your concerns. I even agree with you to a point, but I do feel you might not be understanding all of what is actually going on. For one, I have not seen any entity trying to control anything. Decisions or suggestions have been based on a large group from the ELR world. Not any controlling entity. I have however seen a group of entities coming together in the name of ELR to better define and set suggestions as to what direction it may go. Key words here would be suggestions, or better yet maybe guidelines. I think some guidelines to follow, for those that choose to do so with ELR Matches and record setting events would be great advancement. How else can we measure success or advancement if there are several different sets of criteria for matches and records. No one is going to dictate here. We all have the choice to keep doing our own thing, or do what our group chooses. I may continue to be the loner out shooting ELR and only compete in one or two matches. But , at least I will have some standard guidelines to measure my success to others while I practice. And, if I feel I have a worthy skill set go to a record setting event. When I stated in an earlier post that "2017 was the year for ELR" I didn't mean it to say it was going to halt advancement and end the end of 2017. What I was referring to was the coming together of many top players in the industry and ELR shooting world, and giving recognition to ELR. Joining together to offer direction and unity. To me that means something. I already know of several ELR matches that will be held this summer with targets well over a mile most out to 3K and beyond. A couple I will be helping with. And a few I hope to compete in. When before have we as a ELR community ever had this type of options to compete? And be recognized under some guidelines so we can compare results? That was my point in saying 2017 is looking to be the year for ELR. Thanks for allowing me the chance to explain. I know I am excited, and I will be covering all this in full force on my site.
Regards
Jeff

 

[THEIS]

Hello,

Just wrapped up 3 days of testing a few projectile designs at RUAG facility up by Thune Switzerland. If any commercial projectile and/or ammunition company and has ever wanted to put their products over dappled radar but have always been turned off by cost may want to look into utilization of RUAG facility. You can rent facility by half day or whole day. Their cost are very low in comparison to Yuma, Denel Overberg, etc.

Pics are not posting from cellphone so will get few posted tomorrow when and if I wake up, lol

THEIS

 

[THEIS]

Few pics that coincide with projectile testing.

THEIS

 

[alcesgigas]

I was getting sleepy. Then I saw this. Very interested; been following this development. Keep up the good stuff...

 

[THEIS]

I do feel you might not be understanding all of what is actually going on. For one, I have not seen any entity trying to control anything. Decisions or suggestions have been based on a large group from the ELR world. Not any controlling entity.
Jeff

Hello Jeff,

I think I actually do know what all is going on; for example..

#1 You have a commercial entity that has made a name for itself in the "normal" distance shooting world asking a poll of what ELR community thinks should be deciding basis of what "ELR" really is----distance or TS/SS. When people begin posting distance, distance, distance the commercial entity tells them how wrong they are and that the "poll" suggest a vast majority voted TS/SS.....Well that is "controlling" to me because clearly from the thread replies on the multiple forums the overwhelming reply was Distance should determine but clearly that does not play into the commercial entities vision.

#2 Do you know how many of the KO2M spots were filled before the registration went "live"? If anything like the first year..I will venture to say half. That is not growing the ELR community but rather isolating it into "self picked" ambassadors.

#3 Notice the "World Record Shot Challenge" in Texas has not announced the cost of the event even though they mentioned weeks ago it would be posted within the week. Wanna know why.....I would say they are trying to get a better understanding as to the max price people will pay based off how many people complain they did not get into the KO2M. That is not growing the ELR community but rather strictly attempting to monetize it.

As mentioned previously....It just does not make sense to attempt to reinvent the wheel..Oscar and his URSA have already laid the roadmap to define ELR and its' accomplishments. Those guidelines to compete and have baseline to compare to other ELR shooters have been set for years in his organization but he has it setup as a non business entity so it makes those running some of the other entities shy away from it because it is harder to push their agenda and/or monetize from it.

But also glad to see Dan Warner throw his ELR competition thoughts out to the public and lay everything in the open with it and ask what people thought of the COF and such. To me that is a difference in running a competition for the growth of ELR and running a competition for the growth of your competition.

The pure nature of ELR is to continue to push the boundaries and that nature within itself makes it hard to "label" and/or "certify" what is and is not ELR. That continual push of the boundaries also makes it even harder to "standardize" the ELR genre as a sanctioned entity. Just seems like standardizing ELR or the attempt to that is..is like trying to tame a tornado. As soon as you get accustomed to one direction and distance; it changes on you.

I truly do wish ALL the entities and organizations the best of luck and growth. I just personally think its futile since ELR is about the most constantly changing shooting genre there is. Something is always being improved upon that changes some aspect of ELR genre. That constant change will and is going to make it very hard for any sanctioning body to keep up.

I look forward to seeing where and what it grows to.

THEIS

 

[THEIS]

Hello,

Well this past IDEX had lots of companies showcasing products geared towards drone detection and protection.

One such company has a doppler radar and high speed camera system that can detect and video the PD-100 Black hornet nano uav at 3500m.

I spoke at lengths with their Chief Technical Officer in regards to calibrating the system to detect smaller objects such as flying projectiles. He said that would not be a problem and that they should be able to calibrate the detection system to detect a moving object the size of a house fly while keeping ability to reduce false detection's.

We should be able to test the unit for projectile detection in May at KASOTC.

THEIS

 

[Broz]

Hello Jeff,

I think I actually do know what all is going on; for example..

#1 You have a commercial entity that has made a name for itself in the "normal" distance shooting world asking a poll of what ELR community thinks should be deciding basis of what "ELR" really is----distance or TS/SS. When people begin posting distance, distance, distance the commercial entity tells them how wrong they are and that the "poll" suggest a vast majority voted TS/SS.....Well that is "controlling" to me because clearly from the thread replies on the multiple forums the overwhelming reply was Distance should determine but clearly that does not play into the commercial entities vision.

#2 Do you know how many of the KO2M spots were filled before the registration went "live"? If anything like the first year..I will venture to say half. That is not growing the ELR community but rather isolating it into "self picked" ambassadors.

THEIS

Sir I will respectfully address these quotes at this time. 1: It is my understanding the group, as a group of ELR shooters, MFG's and Match directors did indeed listen to the majority. And I do believe at this time that ELR will be defined in distance. Also it was polled for what that distance should be as a starting point of ELR and I do believe 1500 and 1760 were the most popular. Lets see what is announced before we assume.

2: I agree the KO2M is mostly pre-entered by their own FCSA club members. But myself, as a new shooter was able to move quickly when they announced entry open on their fb page. As a result, I and a friend got in. Neither of us had shot this event before or are affiliated with KO2M or FCSA. Please understand that although the KO2M was included in the group as Match directors, they have no affiliation and are just there for input and to vote. Just because some may sponsor or shoot the KO2M match, does not make them connected in any way other than media promotions.

I feel there is a need for what they are doing. There are to be several matches proposed to be held this summer across the US. Dan Warner and Jeff V were part of the group and their course of fire was something I and a few others worked on. I do believe it will fall into the suggested guidelines of the group, when released. This I like, as we can all get a better ideal of where our skill sets, equipment and methods measure up to others on somewhat of a standardized platform.

Thank you for the conversation, I think things will be released in the not too distant future. I will have details on my site in the ELR section as soon as I get them.

Good Shooting.

Jeff

 

[THEIS]

Thank you for the conversation, I think things will be released in the not too distant future. I will have details on my site in the ELR section as soon as I get them.

Good Shooting.

Jeff

Hello,

Thank you for the conversation! Always a pleasure to discuss ELR and the advancement of it.

THEIS

 

[Deleted member 46119]

Hello,

Thank you for the conversation! Always a pleasure to discuss ELR and the advancement of it.

THEIS

To help me digest your writing, is American English your first language?

No insult intended, just seems like your first language is French or German or Nordic.