Why you need to Understand Vista Outdoors and What They Own

[cohunt]

People complain about $5/gallon gas, $50/lb powder, expensive primers and loaded ammo......but not too many people that drink Starbucks mocha's seem to complain about the $26/gallon coffee-- I guess it's all relative

We all want to spend less but make more, that doesn't really work though

Needs and wants......

 

[Earnhardt]

Yes, true, but then the numbers you wanna see are what price they charge the ammo makers and the military for the same component they sell to reloaders......I guarantee you it aint the same price.

And I double guarantee you, Federal, Remington Ammo, do not pay the same price from Federal and CCI, and Remington Primers, you do.

The gouging on components is at the margins to the public, not internal. And I havent seen finished ammo go to $400 a box either.....

And what you do NOT understand is that we (reloaders) don't really matter to them in the financial scheme of things...compared to military contracts and ammo sales to the general public

They charge what they want...and we continue to buy these expensive reloading components....Supply and demand

I've said this many times here... some of you gripe about $150 for 1000 primers, but you are on a waiting list for a $90,000 SUV or pickup
Or some of you are now paying $600,000 for a home that was $300,000 2 years ago...

Please explain that to me

 

[Petey308]

The bar keeps being set higher and higher on prices because we keep buying at those prices faster than they can keep them on the shelf. Why would they ever go back to "normal" prices when they know people will still fight people to pay 2-3 times, or even WAY more?

Same goes for gas and many other things. When we become reliant on something, even if it's just a hobby/passion, they know they can set prices and people will still pay. They can give any number of "reason" for the increase and it really doesn't matter.

And yes, monopolies only make this worse. Obviously multiple sources for the same product would create more competitive marketing and pricing. Capitalism is great, but it definitely comes with its own consequences as well. When the rich keep buying up all the competition, it results in a loss for the consumer.

 

[orkan]

Why would they ever go back to "normal" prices when they know people will still fight people to pay 2-3 times, or even WAY more?

Exactly.

So if people simply stop buying... the prices will come down, or they will go out of business and stop producing them.

Why would anyone think the price we pay, should match what companies buying MILLIONS of primers a year are paying? If I was in charge of buying primers for an ammo plant, and the primer company expected me to pay retail as if I was some guy buying 200 primers at a time, I'd tell them to take a long walk off a short cliff.

While I agree that it would be nice to have more primer manufacturers... the economy of scale dictates that any new primer company would have to charge significantly more for their product, even if that product were no better than what is currently available. Then these same consumers complaining about price would vilify them, and try to destroy their company from the start. I've seen it happen. (not with primers, but other items)

When someone wants something, but doesn't want to pay what is being asked for it, they always try to vilify the company producing it. It's selfish and short sighted. In this instance... its even worse. People complain about the price, but complain MORE that there are none to buy at that price. So they telegraph that they will definitely pay whatever price is asked, by their anger that they can't buy what they want, at the price they don't like but will absolutely pay.

Not to mention the loudest complainers only use a few hundred a year, if that...

Logic is truly becoming lost to the world.

 

[Petey308]

Exactly.

So if people simply stop buying... the prices will come down, or they will go out of business and stop producing them.

Why would anyone think the price we pay, should match what companies buying MILLIONS of primers a year are paying? If I was in charge of buying primers for an ammo plant, and the primer company expected me to pay retail as if I was some guy buying 200 primers at a time, I'd tell them to take a long walk off a short cliff.

While I agree that it would be nice to have more primer manufacturers... the economy of scale dictates that any new primer company would have to charge significantly more for their product, even if that product were no better than what is currently available. Then these same consumers complaining about price would vilify them, and try to destroy their company from the start. I've seen it happen. (not with primers, but other items)

When someone wants something, but doesn't want to pay what is being asked for it, they always try to vilify the company producing it. It's selfish and short sighted. In this instance... its even worse. People complain about the price, but complain MORE that there are none to buy at that price. So they telegraph that they will definitely pay whatever price is asked, by their anger that they can't buy what they want, at the price they don't like but will absolutely pay.

Not to mention the loudest complainers only use a few hundred a year, if that...

Logic is truly becoming lost to the world.

People won't stop buying though, that's the problem. And money makes the world go round. Any new company starting out definitely has a HUGE hurdle of the initial investment and trying like heck to make a profit as quick as possible and become sustainable. A lot of new companies that start to have a lot of success are typically quickly approached by the big guys offering a buyout too. I've seen a lot of them sell too, which I suppose is great for them, but not to their customers.

It seems like a simple solution to just start up more factories and make more product, but the initial investment is massive and then being able to sustain it for decades or more to come is the real challenge. In many cases, it's just not feasible and it's why you tend to see lots of little companies in the shooting, hunting, reloading, etc industries come and go so often. It just doesn't work out.

 

[Petey308]

Don't forget about Clarus and that they now own both Sierra and Barnes, as well as several other brands.

The Freedom Group used to own several brands that got redistributed to other big corporations in the last few years too.

 

[bthemongrel]

Did you know that Vista Outdoors now owns the following ammunition component companies?

Federal Primers and Powder and all Federal products
CCI Primers and all CCI products
Remington Primers and Ammunition
Alliant Powders

They also own Bushnell now.

The big revelation for me in this list is that they now own Alliant too.

One of the big reasons we are probably not seeing Alliant powders is because I understand that maybe most of the Alliant powders are now going to manufactured ammunition under Federal and Remington......

Wonder why Primer Prices have been so inflated lately??? Who owns Federal, CCI, and Remington Primers?

This is what Hodgdon and Winchester are up against.

Seen any RL-26 or Rl 15 thru 25 lately? Not much if any, and if any at $50 and north of there per pound.

Monopolies are no good. Where where the antitrust boys on all this?
Probably helping them consolidate, cause its easier to control that way......

These ain't yore Grandpa's components no more.

This can't be good!

 

[kgunz11]

You boys are so late to the game, and your conspiracy theories hold no water. Do you know how long Federal has owned ATK (Alliant)? How about CCI? How about who is actually running the Lake City Armament for the government?

Look, it's real simple, our demand exceeds our manufacturing capabilities. Everyone is afraid to grow to meet the current demand because everyone knows it will flop again at some point.

I've been in this industry for 25 years, I've seen it ebb and flow.

 

[jimmybrost]

Berger is owned by Nammo Group which also owns Lapua.

They also own Vitavohurri if I'm not mistaken.

 

[DocB]

Did you know that Vista Outdoors now owns the following ammunition component companies?

Federal Primers and Powder and all Federal products
CCI Primers and all CCI products
Remington Primers and Ammunition
Alliant Powders

They also own Bushnell now.

The big revelation for me in this list is that they now own Alliant too.

One of the big reasons we are probably not seeing Alliant powders is because I understand that maybe most of the Alliant powders are now going to manufactured ammunition under Federal and Remington......

Wonder why Primer Prices have been so inflated lately??? Who owns Federal, CCI, and Remington Primers?

This is what Hodgdon and Winchester are up against.

Seen any RL-26 or Rl 15 thru 25 lately? Not much if any, and if any at $50 and north of there per pound.

Monopolies are no good. Where where the antitrust boys on all this?
Probably helping them consolidate, cause its easier to control that way......

These ain't yore Grandpa's components no more.

I wonder who's making all that 8,000,000 rounds of ammo for the new ARMED IRS?

 

[65WSM]

I was looking for stocks to buy after the first quarter reports in 2021. Vista was one of the stocks with a glowing report. When I went to trade for the stock, TD-Ameritrade gave me a warning that senior staff and board members were selling blocks of shares. I decided purchase General Dynamics (who purchased the powder facilities in Canada (legacy IMR and other stick powders) and St Marks ("Winchester branded" ball powders in Florida). St Marks also produces a number of Alliant rifle ball powders like 4000MR and 2000MR.

My question is who is responsible for the production of "Winchester" primers? I tried to link them to Olin, but could not find a recent report that showed ownership.

 

[Teri Anne]

Did you know that Vista Outdoors now owns the following ammunition component companies?

Federal Primers and Powder and all Federal products
CCI Primers and all CCI products
Remington Primers and Ammunition
Alliant Powders

They also own Bushnell now.

The big revelation for me in this list is that they now own Alliant too.

One of the big reasons we are probably not seeing Alliant powders is because I understand that maybe most of the Alliant powders are now going to manufactured ammunition under Federal and Remington......

Wonder why Primer Prices have been so inflated lately??? Who owns Federal, CCI, and Remington Primers?

This is what Hodgdon and Winchester are up against.

Seen any RL-26 or Rl 15 thru 25 lately? Not much if any, and if any at $50 and north of there per pound.

Monopolies are no good. Where where the antitrust boys on all this?
Probably helping them consolidate, cause its easier to control that way......

These ain't yore Grandpa's components no more.

If they now own Bushnell, did everything that Bushnell had under their bonnet so to speak go along with it? In that case you can add RCBS.com, Primos.com, Hoppes.com, WeaverOptics.com, ChampionTarget.com and ButlerCreek.com to the list.

 

[blvette75]

Did you know that Vista Outdoors now owns the following ammunition component companies?

Federal Primers and Powder and all Federal products
CCI Primers and all CCI products
Remington Primers and Ammunition
Alliant Powders

They also own Bushnell now.

The big revelation for me in this list is that they now own Alliant too.

One of the big reasons we are probably not seeing Alliant powders is because I understand that maybe most of the Alliant powders are now going to manufactured ammunition under Federal and Remington......

Wonder why Primer Prices have been so inflated lately??? Who owns Federal, CCI, and Remington Primers?

This is what Hodgdon and Winchester are up against.

Seen any RL-26 or Rl 15 thru 25 lately? Not much if any, and if any at $50 and north of there per pound.

Monopolies are no good. Where where the antitrust boys on all this?
Probably helping them consolidate, cause its easier to control that way......

These ain't yore Grandpa's components no more.

Looks like in the future the all of the reloaders will be squeezed, by either real or artificially induced inflation from one major supplier, reverse trickle down effect.

 

[TxHeartShot]

Did you know that Vista Outdoors now owns the following ammunition component companies?

Federal Primers and Powder and all Federal products
CCI Primers and all CCI products
Remington Primers and Ammunition
Alliant Powders

They also own Bushnell now.

The big revelation for me in this list is that they now own Alliant too.

One of the big reasons we are probably not seeing Alliant powders is because I understand that maybe most of the Alliant powders are now going to manufactured ammunition under Federal and Remington......

Wonder why Primer Prices have been so inflated lately??? Who owns Federal, CCI, and Remington Primers?

This is what Hodgdon and Winchester are up against.

Seen any RL-26 or Rl 15 thru 25 lately? Not much if any, and if any at $50 and north of there per pound.

Monopolies are no good. Where where the antitrust boys on all this?
Probably helping them consolidate, cause its easier to control that way......

These ain't yore Grandpa's components no more.

Monopolies...
Economics, supply and demand, dictate prices. Sure there's the occasional government interference in the free market, but for the vast number of items it is simple capitalism.

Many outdoor companies are owned by conglomerates, but attempts at price fixing seldom work because there's enough competition in most markets. I'm surprised to see you want MORE government, not less.