Why Hammer Bullets Are Always Faster

[RockyMtnMT]

Well thats 400 fps faster than any load listed anywhere with any 140 gr with a 24" barrel and that powder. And your getting it in a 22".

Yes. With Peterson brass. The brass probably gives an extra 100 fps over other brass. This would be because the bread can handle more pressure than other brass. This does not mean that there is not pressure with Peterson brass just that the brass is stronger.

Maybe we should also say that one brass is not able to produce higher velocity than another. All brass is the same regardless of how or what it is made of.

You have a 280ai?

 

[2buffalo]

Well thats 400 fps faster than any load listed anywhere with any 140 gr with a 24" barrel and that powder. And your getting it in a 22".

Why don't you try it yourself and report back your findings?

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I have a question for @Lou270. Some rifles are not capable of running a max listed load in a given manual. This the reason for never starting with the max listed load. I assume you start low and work up your load toward the max listed load. How do you determine if you are good to go all the way to the max load or if you should stop short because your rifle is pressuring out before the max load?

 

[Calvin45]

I have a question for @Lou270. Some rifles are not capable of running a max listed load in a given manual. This the reason for never starting with the max listed load. I assume you start low and work up your load toward the max listed load. How do you determine if you are good to go all the way to the max load or if you should stop short because your rifle is pressuring out before the max load?

An additional question I must add….are the saami specs for max pressure not somewhat arbitrary? Say you're over 65kpsi….if the brass can take it, there's no stiffness on the bolt lift, no cratering or pierced primer, no case web expansion, excessive stretch, neck splits, head separation etc…the primer pockets are staying reasonably long lived…

Is it somehow still a major problem if your a little over that number? I'm not talking proof loads or anything crazy, but it's been my experience that there will be meaningful signs long before you're doing something truly dangerous. Modern rifles are very well built. Factory saami specs, loadings, and velocity have to account for all manner of tolerances in chamber tightness, throat length/freebore (yes it is standardized but no it isn't always the same in the real world), and even vintage of rifle for many cartridges.

Should we all not go past a certain speed purely because it might be over an arbitrary psi limit even though the brass is fine, the rifle is fine, etc,


I agreed to stop repeating myself but now I have new things to say

 

[RockyMtnMT]

An additional question I must add….are the saami specs for max pressure not somewhat arbitrary? Say you're over 65kpsi….if the brass can take it, there's no stiffness on the bolt lift, no cratering or pierced primer, no case web expansion, excessive stretch, neck splits, head separation etc…the primer pockets are staying reasonably long lived…

Is it somehow still a major problem if your a little over that number? I'm not talking proof loads or anything crazy, but it's been my experience that there will be meaningful signs long before you're doing something truly dangerous. Modern rifles are very well built. Factory saami specs, loadings, and velocity have to account for all manner of tolerances in chamber tightness, throat length/freebore (yes it is standardized but no it isn't always the same in the real world), and even vintage of rifle for many cartridges.

Should we all not go past a certain speed purely because it might be over an arbitrary psi limit even though the brass is fine, the rifle is fine, etc,


I agreed to stop repeating myself but now I have new things to say

Saami pressure is infact arbitrary. There is no oversight committee that determines these numbers. The Saami pressure is chosen by the designer of the cartridge. Yes, that is right. Chosen.

 

[JakeC]

Then you need to stick to published data , there is no published data of Hammer bullets , if what you are saying , you really believe you need to stay with a bullet that has their published data . I don't think there is anyone on this forum that can change the way you think about your understanding of the way Hammer bullets are loaded to their potential . fifty driver describes in detail how he arrives at a safe pressure .

Agreed their has been a lot of good explanatory post , fifty driver explained it best in my opinion ,



Personally I think quickload , is a guideline for Hammer bullets, and does not take in account of their design . They are faster by design just as the absolute design is faster than the Hammer design. If reloading manuals were Gospel , they wouldn't always start 10 percent below max and work to their max published data . I'm sure they expect the reloader to read pressure signs. When they arrive at a maximum they also take into account of old military, and firearms built years ago , that leave higher velocities on the table for modern better built firearms of today , that shoot the same cartridges of yesterday,so yes as handloaders we learn too read pressure signs working up loads . I don't think it s an accident that Hammers always are faster on a finished load, if the loader has the ideal components , for the cartridge he is loading .No matter how long we beat this dead horse their will be the Naysayers and That is OK , if they load Hammers they will find out for themselves. I'm as surprised as anyone , but I'm open minded and push the limits.

Right, the idea that manuals are the a) the only safe path to success b) correct in the first place is a little wild. That's a weird gotcha to land on. If manuals were gospel there'd only be 4 and they'd all say basically the same thing, plus or minus a few entries. They are super helpful guidlines but I've found trouble more than once well within safe zones.

My gun quits way below "max", I'm usually stressing primers a little above start and I'm popping them 3/4 of the way there. Meanwhile other folks can get past max perfectly safely. I feel like that only becomes controversial when someone wants to make a point. You need to know how to reload attentively even with a manual or quickload. The idea that one can't safely interpolate methods and results for unpublished bullets within a known weight class is befuddling. The idea that a bullet cannot achieve higher or lower max safe speeds than another one of the aame weight is straight comedy.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I need to make it very clear that only the Absolute Hammers are capable of much higher velocities. The rest of the Hammer line is fairly conventional with about 50-100 fps more than conventional bullets of similar weight. They will line up pretty well with conventional load data. Absolutes do not line up with conventional data. This is because they have exceptionally low engraving pressure.

 

[BEEMAN]

So I posted a thread about 280AI speeds and the hammer guys were saying they got 3400 with a 140 and H100v. Ok. Now I can maybe get that due to bullet design and engraving forces you can get higher velocity. But 100v is 200 fps slower than every other 140 with R26. So with R26 you can get 3600? No way. So by some mystery of physics hammers are faster with 100v than other powders in 140 class bullets which are known to be faster. That doesnt pass the smell test.

I believe I replied in that thread. I do get 3300 FPS with a 140 AH out of a 23" barrel with H100V. As do many other guys. I will say my barrel reached these velocities with less powder than some others. When the lab radar showed just under 3400 FPS I felt I must be close to pressure and stopped , because no one else in the data sheet was running at 3400 FPS I believe. If I'm reading your question right, I think it is the comparison of just saying a 140 gr weight bullet. A 140 AH can not be compared to any other 140 gr bullet. Takes a faster powder than a conventional 140 gr bullet to achieve the AH full potential. I'll admit I had a hard time wrapping my head around it too. But they work as advertised. I will also say I would of never tried the absolute line without all the load data that has been submitted. So thanks to everyone who submitted data and to GL for making up the charts.

 

[fordy]

Yes. With Peterson brass. The brass probably gives an extra 100 fps over other brass. This would be because the bread can handle more pressure than other brass. This does not mean that there is not pressure with Peterson brass just that the brass is stronger.

Gday Steve
Just wondering if you were eating your sandwich & the bread in it was so lovely that you typed that in & it should have been brass not bread

I also don't mind eating my words so if it is bread I'll happily eat my bread comment but @ this hour here I'll put it in the toaster first
So why it's cooking please explain the bread part
Cheers

 

[Lou270]

One thing you can do in QL is edit the shot start pressure. This is the engraving pressure. Some folks change this to mimic seating in lands.

Reducing the shot start pressure should reduce velocity and then you can add more powder to get velocity back up and see what it tells you. If this is same in tool for hammer and barnes that is why dont see difference. For ex you could set it to half if think that is what hammer gets compared to barnes and see some results. Still not real world but will give an idea how engraving pressure affecrts the p/t curve and velocity

I would do it but I dont have QL anymore. I would buy it but last 3 generations of computers me and family have do not have CD and that is only way can get it I think

Lou

 

[Lou270]

I have a question for @Lou270. Some rifles are not capable of running a max listed load in a given manual. This the reason for never starting with the max listed load. I assume you start low and work up your load toward the max listed load. How do you determine if you are good to go all the way to the max load or if you should stop short because your rifle is pressuring out before the max load?

If you are not using a chronograph then should stop and back off. Assume using a chronograph, then you should be paying attention to velocity adjusted for barrel length and ambient conditions (ie temp). If you hit expected velocity before max charge you should stop there. Used to not happen much, but not uncommon with all the custom, semi-custom, and factory guns with "match" chambers these days.

However, I am assuming you mean a case where velocity is significantly low (say 100 fps less than expected) and still getting some pressure signs. The first thing I would do is check with factory loads to see velocity and if has same pressure signs. I would also try different brand of brass. If get expected results with those I would keep paying attention to it but assume it is a bad lot of brass though I would keep loads on mild side until do not see signs again after more shooting

If do see pressure signs even on factory loads or other brass (again assuming significantly lower than expected velocity) then I would look for a mechanical cause of the pressure signs (web search is friend here). If cant figure it out then would just live with "slow gun" or send it on its way

Lou

 

[ButterBean]

Ok. First you guys are telling me the AH is a unique design so you can run it faster at the same pressure. I could maybe buy that. Then your telling me that 100v is faster than R 26 when every quickload data I look at for every other 140 R26 is 180 fps faster. Again, maybe it is the bullet design. But you would assume that R 26 would still be faster than 100v with the AH like it is with every other bullet of the same weight. So now I have to believe that quick load doesnt work with this bullet design. And no one has any actual pressure tested data. That's a big ask my friend. I would hope that the bullet maker could find a way to provide some actual tested data since he is making a pretty bold claim. I'm aware wildcatters have been operating in this way but we are taking about a bullet maker who is selling a product. I'm aware Berger uses quickload at times as do other bullet makers but most of the big boys have pressure barrels. If they were making a claim like this I'm pretty sure they would be pressure testing it for liability sake. Right now all we have is some really experienced guys are doing it and nobody has blown up a rifle yet.

Ok. First you guys are telling me the AH is a unique design so you can run it faster at the same pressure. I could maybe buy that. Then your telling me that 100v is faster than R 26 when every quickload data I look at for every other 140 R26 is 180 fps faster. Again, maybe it is the bullet design. But you would assume that R 26 would still be faster than 100v with the AH like it is with every other bullet of the same weight. So now I have to believe that quick load doesnt work with this bullet design. And no one has any actual pressure tested data. That's a big ask my friend. I would hope that the bullet maker could find a way to provide some actual tested data since he is making a pretty bold claim. I'm aware wildcatters have been operating in this way but we are taking about a bullet maker who is selling a product. I'm aware Berger uses quickload at times as do other bullet makers but most of the big boys have pressure barrels. If they were making a claim like this I'm pretty sure they would be pressure testing it for liability sake. Right now all we have is some really experienced guys are doing it and nobody has blown up a rifle yet.

As said above and I confirm QL does not work with Hammers, they will figure it out eventually I think but as of now they haven't

 

[Lou270]

Yes sir I did edit as I have fat fingers and was embarrassed that I posted that with out a proof read and I do apologize, my question is do you drive the speed limit or do you drive 5mph over ?

Lol, nope. I drive over. However I treat the posted speed limit as pressure limit not velocity in my mind so try not to exceed that. No way of knowing perfect but that is goal. Moving to TX years back and shooting in very hot weather has taught me some things about pressure and "safe" loads so more conservative than I used to be

Lou

 

[ButterBean]

Well thats 400 fps faster than any load listed anywhere with any 140 gr with a 24" barrel and that powder. And your getting it in a 22".

That's right and this falls in line with Lou's pressure problem, Hammers don't fit under any general bullet information or profiles, it's a game changer and folks can't get their heads around it