Why Hammer Bullets Are Always Faster

[ButterBean]

So I posted a thread about 280AI speeds and the hammer guys were saying they got 3400 with a 140 and H100v. Ok. Now I can maybe get that due to bullet design and engraving forces you can get higher velocity. But 100v is 200 fps slower than every other 140 with R26. So with R26 you can get 3600? No way. So by some mystery of physics hammers are faster with 100v than other powders in 140 class bullets which are known to be faster. That doesnt pass the smell test.

I'm not sure what you are getting at but 100V way faster than RL26 with the 140s

 

[ButterBean]

What in the world are the last couple of posts? I didnt quite get them, but I think they are cuts at me. If so, sorry if I made you feel bad with a rational discussion. Maybe the moderator will give you a "safe" forum. If not, sorry I took wrong way. Either case you can PM me to not take away from the post on loading hammers if want to trade insults or discuss something else

Lou

There are no cuts at you, just simply asking questions that even though you didn't answer directly you provided the answer we expected.
Have a good rest of the evening

 

[Lou270]

Butterbean

Please reask the questions. If I did not answer directly I will. Far as I can tell I backed my posts with facts. If there is something that do not think is correct I am happy to listen or discuss. I still can't tell what you are talking about other than not liking that I propose we need more proof than some folks guessing at pressure of their handloads.

If you believe you have a special reloading method where you know pressure is a certain value without pressure equipment I would like to hear it or point to previous post

I am willing to learn and doesn't offend me if I am not 100 percent right. I prefer to visit these sites to learn and converse not trade snide remarks

Lou

PS i edited post to remove snide remark. I saw BB edited his while posting.

 

[MW204]

Yup.

300 Weatherby:

165gr Hornady interlock - 3390.
170gr Hammer - 3300.
180gr Barnes TTSX - 3232.

Seems about right to me. Definitely not "always" faster like the OP stated.

I loaded my first 300 wm custom I built this year with 178gr AH, my pressure load was 76gr of H4350, slight heavy bolt at the top while opening. My fps averaged 3350, with 75 grs of H4350 with a group of<3/8".

 

[HARPERC]

Pressure is one variable, and the more variables we can measure the better.

The major manufactures with access to such equipment find different max loads, in the same cartridges, using same weight bullets, find different charges to be maximum, with velocities that also vary.

Hammer users finding different results than others is not new. Neither are the caveats regarding caution when hand loading, nor has the way hand loaders evaluate the findings.

 

[ButterBean]

Butterbean

Please reask the questions. If I did not answer directly I will. Far as I can tell I backed my posts with facts. If there is something that do not think is correct I am happy to listen or discuss. I still can't tell what you are talking about other than not liking that I propose we need more proof than some folks guessing at pressure of their handloads.

If you believe you have a special reloading method where you know pressure is a certain value without pressure equipment I would like to hear it or point to previous post

I am willing to learn and doesn't offend me if I am not 100 percent right. I prefer to visit these sites to learn and converse not trade snide remarks

Lou

PS i edited post to remove snide remark. I saw BB edited his while posting.

Yes sir I did edit as I have fat fingers and was embarrassed that I posted that with out a proof read and I do apologize, my question is do you drive the speed limit or do you drive 5mph over ?

 

[ButterBean]

Lou let me also i respect your opinion and I see where you are coming from, we're just on different sides of the fence,

 

[Lee7588]

SMH
I mean no disrespect at all towards anyone but this is beating that same dead horse everyone else has been beating for the last year, just with a different stick. It's like a speed limit sign, thousands upon thousands of dollars spent, decades of research and information gathering to post the safest speed for any stretch of given road for your safety but I'll bet you drive 5 mph over but that's what makes the world go round

Please don't get everyone started on government spending.

 

[Northkill]

 

[cajun]

I'm not sure what you are getting at but 100V way faster than RL26 with the 140s

Ok. First you guys are telling me the AH is a unique design so you can run it faster at the same pressure. I could maybe buy that. Then your telling me that 100v is faster than R 26 when every quickload data I look at for every other 140 R26 is 180 fps faster. Again, maybe it is the bullet design. But you would assume that R 26 would still be faster than 100v with the AH like it is with every other bullet of the same weight. So now I have to believe that quick load doesnt work with this bullet design. And no one has any actual pressure tested data. That's a big ask my friend. I would hope that the bullet maker could find a way to provide some actual tested data since he is making a pretty bold claim. I'm aware wildcatters have been operating in this way but we are taking about a bullet maker who is selling a product. I'm aware Berger uses quickload at times as do other bullet makers but most of the big boys have pressure barrels. If they were making a claim like this I'm pretty sure they would be pressure testing it for liability sake. Right now all we have is some really experienced guys are doing it and nobody has blown up a rifle yet.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

So I posted a thread about 280AI speeds and the hammer guys were saying they got 3400 with a 140 and H100v. Ok. Now I can maybe get that due to bullet design and engraving forces you can get higher velocity. But 100v is 200 fps slower than every other 140 with R26. So with R26 you can get 3600? No way. So by some mystery of physics hammers are faster with 100v than other powders in 140 class bullets which are known to be faster. That doesnt pass the smell test.

Rl26 was too slow for my 22" barrel. H100v did run at 3400 fps. The load currently running in that rifle is rl16 at 3320 fps. I have up the 80 fps for better temp stability.

Not sure what smells here.

 

[Hard rock]

Exacrly right. However velocity is a pressure sign as well. If you are exceeding velocity significantly of published load data you are likely at higher pressures. Looking at primers, etc is only part of it.

Lou

Then you need to stick to published data , there is no published data of Hammer bullets , if what you are saying , you really believe you need to stay with a bullet that has their published data . I don't think there is anyone on this forum that can change the way you think about your understanding of the way Hammer bullets are loaded to their potential . fifty driver describes in detail how he arrives at a safe pressure .

Maybe we should all just stop repeating ourselves. I'll go first!

Agreed their has been a lot of good explanatory post , fifty driver explained it best in my opinion ,

What in the world are the last couple of posts? I didnt quite get them, but I think they are cuts at me. If so, sorry if I made you feel bad with a rational discussion. Maybe the moderator will give you a "safe" forum. If not, sorry I took wrong way. Either case you can PM me to not take away from the post on loading hammers if want to trade insults or discuss something else

Lou

Ok. First you guys are telling me the AH is a unique design so you can run it faster at the same pressure. I could maybe buy that. Then you're telling me that 100v is faster than R 26 when every quickload data I look at for every other 140 R26 is 180 fps faster. Again, maybe it is the bullet design. But you would assume that R 26 would still be faster than 100v with the AH like it is with every other bullet of the same weight. So now I have to believe that quick load doesnt work with this bullet design. And no one has any actual pressure tested data. That's a big ask my friend. I would hope that the bullet maker could find a way to provide some actual tested data since he is making a pretty bold claim. I'm aware wildcatters have been operating in this way but we are taking about a bullet maker who is selling a product. I'm aware Berger uses quickload at times as do other bullet makers but most of the big boys have pressure barrels. If they were making a claim like this I'm pretty sure they would be pressure testing it for liability sake. Right now all we have is some really experienced guys are doing it and nobody has blown up a rifle yet.

Ok. First you guys are telling me the AH is a unique design so you can run it faster at the same pressure. I could maybe buy that. Then your telling me that 100v is faster than R 26 when every quickload data I look at for every other 140 R26 is 180 fps faster. Again, maybe it is the bullet design. But you would assume that R 26 would still be faster than 100v with the AH like it is with every other bullet of the same weight. So now I have to believe that quick load doesnt work with this bullet design. And no one has any actual pressure tested data. That's a big ask my friend. I would hope that the bullet maker could find a way to provide some actual tested data since he is making a pretty bold claim. I'm aware wildcatters have been operating in this way but we are taking about a bullet maker who is selling a product. I'm aware Berger uses quickload at times as do other bullet makers but most of the big boys have pressure barrels. If they were making a claim like this I'm pretty sure they would be pressure testing it for liability sake. Right now all we have is some really experienced guys are doing it and nobody has blown up a rifle yet.

Personally I think quickload , is a guideline for Hammer bullets, and does not take in account of their design . They are faster by design just as the absolute design is faster than the Hammer design. If reloading manuals were Gospel , they wouldn't always start 10 percent below max and work to their max published data . I'm sure they expect the reloader to read pressure signs. When they arrive at a maximum they also take into account of old military, and firearms built years ago , that leave higher velocities on the table for modern better built firearms of today , that shoot the same cartridges of yesterday,so yes as handloaders we learn too read pressure signs working up loads . I don't think it s an accident that Hammers always are faster on a finished load, if the loader has the ideal components , for the cartridge he is loading .No matter how long we beat this dead horse their will be the Naysayers and That is OK , if they load Hammers they will find out for themselves. I'm as surprised as anyone , but I'm open minded and push the limits.

 

[cajun]

Rl26 was too slow for my 22" barrel. H100v did run at 3400 fps. The load currently running in that rifle is rl16 at 3320 fps. I have up the 80 fps for better temp stability.

Not sure what smells here.

Well thats 400 fps faster than any load listed anywhere with any 140 gr with a 24" barrel and that powder. And your getting it in a 22".

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Ok. First you guys are telling me the AH is a unique design so you can run it faster at the same pressure. I could maybe buy that. Then your telling me that 100v is faster than R 26 when every quickload data I look at for every other 140 R26 is 180 fps faster. Again, maybe it is the bullet design. But you would assume that R 26 would still be faster than 100v with the AH like it is with every other bullet of the same weight. So now I have to believe that quick load doesnt work with this bullet design. And no one has any actual pressure tested data. That's a big ask my friend. I would hope that the bullet maker could find a way to provide some actual tested data since he is making a pretty bold claim. I'm aware wildcatters have been operating in this way but we are taking about a bullet maker who is selling a product. I'm aware Berger uses quickload at times as do other bullet makers but most of the big boys have pressure barrels. If they were making a claim like this I'm pretty sure they would be pressure testing it for liability sake. Right now all we have is some really experienced guys are doing it and nobody has blown up a rifle yet.

QL used a generic pressure value when they profiled Hammer Bullets. They did not take into account the drive band design. You won't get reliable data without changing the pressure values. I have never used QL so I can't help more than that.

I'm not sure what is hard to get here. Berger bullets generally run higher velocity for weight than other bullets because they have a much shorter baring surface creating less pressure resulting in higher max velocity. I think this is generally understood and accepted. Very simplified, pressure varies from one bullet to another of the same weight due to the amount of bullet that makes contact in the barrel.

@Fiftydriver made a very comprehensive post of how he finds pressure. He explained how the Hammer Bullets result in higher velocities at the same point of max pressure compared to other bullets. I guess it was ignored?

We are not the first to make drive bands bullets that reduce pressure and result in greater velocity. It is well known that drive band or bore rider bullets can achieve higher velocities at full pressure than conventional bullets. We are the first to do it with a radius drive bands design. Our design allows us to cut bullets at over caliber in diameter without increasing pressure. By doing this we have more consistent accuracy from rifle to rifle across the board than any other bullet. We solved the copper bullet issue of high pressure in tight barrels and poor accuracy in loose barrels.

So you know rl26 is a slower powder than h100v. The term slow is in reference to the burn rate of the powder not velocity.