True MACHINIST gunsmiths? (a rare breed)

[ksfarmer]

Unfortunately if a person can weld, braze, silver solder, carve, finish woodwork, machine- lathe and mill, fit, polish and coat he probably can make a very good living without putting up with shooters who are a pita.

 

[26Reload]

If we have to look at each and every dollar of a build..we need to really cut the bs and fix the price....every smith can only charge this amount per work done on the rifle....you guys know....socialism....you can't have anymore that anyone else....
If carpenters and dentist and doctors and everyone else were limited to a maximum they could charge for work..would you get the same results...
Hell no.....its called capitalism...get what you can while you can....cause it may come to a screeching halt...tough part for lots of us is that we may be independent business owners and have scruples....if when i go out on a job and i see when i get there the sweetest little old lady living in a trash heap I have problems charging her the same amount as i would some doctor living in a mansion...he sure as hell isn't gonna give me a break if i show up to his office in need of help.........but then again..that poor little lady probably has more cash stuck in her mattress than i have ever seen....its the way it goes...
All we can hope for when we take something to a smith is something that works like it is supposed to when we get it back......what he charges for his work better be worth it and up front about the price or he better get the hell out of the business....just like other people in other occupations...

 

[Pdvdh]

No, I don't spend $2000 for Gunsmith costs on a rifle. I currently have 4 rifles in progress. I send the action and barrel to a Gunsmith and have the chambering and threading done. My average Gunsmith cost per rifle will be about $600. That includes chambering, threading, reaming a seater die, and shipping for the round trip.

Similar to what I now do. Except my barrels need muzzle brakes installed also.

I had two built from the ground up around 5-10yrs ago, but was nowhere near $2,000 in gunsmithing costs for the full builds. And one of those two took 2+ years to get back. Yikes... I can do without that ever again.

 

[Gord0]

I am a machinist, a CNC programmer, and an engineer. I would never claim to be a gunsmith. Or to know how to machine anything better than most smiths. Not because I dont think my work is good, but because I may learn something from someone who has 15yrs less knowledge than I. I also have not one single piece of paper, except my business cards to say that I have any of these "certifications". But if you've seen a military vehicle, aircraft, or guided ordinance I have machined, programmed, and engineered product for them. Papers don't mean crap.
I have been machining for over 20yrs, and am still learning. There are things I know about machining that a good smith would never have to know or use. Just as there are many things that a smith knows how to do that I don't. Someone that is a "craftsman" as JE said may want to learn some of those other aspects to possibly improve their workmanship. I could continue, but I've probably rambled enough.

 

[xsn10s]

How many gunsmiths do you know that are certified machinists? I'm talking about someone who has all the training to be a machinist with the certification to back it up.

Sadly any guy with some knowledge of firearms and a lathe capable of cutting a chamber or threading a barrel and a few go, no-go gauges is not a gunsmith.

Maybe a military trained armorer is one with a start toward being a gunsmith. However military firearms are limited in variety and unless they with an elite unit like the Army Marksmanship Training Unit they won't be ready to enter civilian gunsmithing.

Did they attend a brick-and-mortar gunsmithing school? Better, but still not a machinist.

Eric B.

I know a certified machinist with around 30 years of experience who is doing R&D machining for a bullet and firearms company. A few engineers doing the same. A old room mate gunsmith who works for a different firearms company now. And an retired old time gunsmith/ gun store owner/ retired CS rep. He's the kind of guy that gun writers ask questions. I'm not sure he's a certified machinist but he has enough firearm knowledge that I would be confident in his opinions.

 

[Apex Custom Rifles]

Keeping in mind that many of the top smiths in the world can produce a fine firearm themselves, but many specialize in one aspect of it. ie, engraving, stock makers. Metal finishers.

I myself at one time was considered a gunsmith and can make a very nice sporting or target rifle, but I'm more of a traditionalist, and add a hobby now, nothing bolts together and a nice rifle can take well over a year in my spare time. Not because it's my spare time, but I strive to improve on the last one and there is always something I try to improve on. Really nice stuff takes time. The machining aspect of it is just one piece to the puzzle. I've seen some "Expert" machinists butcher a simple thread and chamber job. Came to the conclusion that they were full of whatever they thought they were.

It comes down to how detail oriented the person working on the firearm is.

The guy I learned quite a bit from was far from a tool and die maker, but he specialized with one action, worked over thousands of them, and he built some very nice custom hunting rifles and extremely accurate (BR) rifles.

 

[.30US]

I take gunsmithing courses at a community college as time permits, and have had the opportunity to observe a couple things. The gunsmith instructors, who all have experience machining, whether it be through their degree at the school or some outside experience when they were away from the gunsmithing field, were very knowledgeable and detail oriented. They all stressed the importance of tolerances and concentricity in everything we did because they had an understanding of what we were intending to build and how the parts and accessories had to function together to produce the desired outcome. I took a true machinist's course from the same school with a top machinist instructor brought in from another reputable school. This machinist has an interest in gunsmithing, has take some of the courses I have, and teaches at a gunsmithing school, though he does not have a gunsmithing certificate, he has nearly 30 years as a tool and die maker, manual and CNC machining instructor, and many other relevant experiences. He introduced me to formulas for figuring out my ideal cutting speeds for different materials and sizes, which the gunsmith instructors I had previously had not touched on, but had given us general speeds to use for the machining operations we were doing. However, this master machinist went on to tell the class that using the tail stock to press a tap onto a barrel to thread the muzzle was every bit as good as single point threading it with the tool post. I don't doubt that he can do it just as well, but that is not a piece of information that I thought a bunch of aspiring machinists should be taking away from the course. There's a lot to be learned from either type of instructor, but for my money, I care more about having a great gunsmith that knows the machining he is doing on a firearm than a great machinist who doesn't think about things like, "how is that suppressor going to react to my muzzle threading in this manner?"

 

[degreen]

I know some badass machinists that couldn't build a rifle worth a crap, and also know gun builders that don't know anything about a CNC machine that can build excellent rifles...

Me to. I have a friend that has been machining for about 40 years, and he told me that he doesn't know anything about gunsmithing. Just because you know how to cut metal doesn't mean you know how to build a gun.

I know some badass machinists that couldn't build a rifle worth a crap, and also know gun builders that don't know anything about a CNC machine that can build excellent rifles...

 

[tobnpr]

I'm a bit puzzled by the premise of the question to begin with.
"Machinist" covers a huge, diverse array of operations and skillsets- the vast majority of which have nothing to do with common gunsmithing needs. As a riflesmith, I sure don't need to have knowledge of how to cut a keyway into a 6" diameter shaft with a horizontal mill...

I DO need to understand concepts (concentricity, alignment), tolerance stacking, precision thread fits, internal ballistics, and other machining operations related to riflesmithing. In reality, most of the machining operations required for building precision rifles are limited, and simple- but that doesn't mean they can be done with anything other than the utmost precision.

Sure, the less a smith "specializes", the broader his knowledgebase- and his machinery and tooling- must be.

I wouldn't pick a smith that specializes in building competition race guns, to build a precision rifle, nor the other way around.

 

[Edd]

Be cautious when choosing a "Specialist".

A Specialist is someone who learns more about less.

Doesn't this mean the best you can be is to know everything about nothing?

 

[shortgrass]

Tobner, a jobs shop machinist needs to know as much as a "riflesmith" and probably more! Take that keyway for instance. He needs to know how to accurately find center, how deep to cut it , how fast he can cut it, how much of a 'bite' he can take at one time. If I happen to be making a replacement shaft that is going to rotate at high speed when in use, it better be just as 'centered' as a rifle chamber, or it'll induce vibration. A rifle isn't the only 'machine' that requires "tight tolerances". I have been a job shop machinist for over 40yrs. I have a diploma from a 2yr gunsmithing school, too (a '93 grad of MCC, Troy, N.C.). The only limits there may be, when it comes to doing any kind of top quality work, are the limits a person puts upon themselves. The human mind is a wonderful thing, there is no "full" mark on that 'vessel'!

 

[J E Custom]

Tobner, a jobs shop machinist needs to know as much as a "riflesmith" and probably more! Take that keyway for instance. He needs to know how to accurately find center, how deep to cut it , how fast he can cut it, how much of a 'bite' he can take at one time. If I happen to be making a replacement shaft that is going to rotate at high speed when in use, it better be just as 'centered' as a rifle chamber, or it'll induce vibration. A rifle isn't the only 'machine' that requires "tight tolerances". I have been a job shop machinist for over 40yrs. I have a diploma from a 2yr gunsmithing school, too (a '93 grad of MCC, Troy, N.C.). The only limits there may be, when it comes to doing any kind of top quality work, are the limits a person puts upon themselves. The human mind is a wonderful thing, there is no "full" mark on that 'vessel'!

What he said!!!!!!
And That is coming from a true machinist and great gunsmith.
Excepting nothing but your best is called Craftsmanship and that is the third element to the equation.

I know master machinist that don't make good gunsmiths. I also know some gunsmiths that are not very good machinist that rely on the machine to do quality work, we all know what that leads to.

So if a guy has the machine experience, understands the needs of a firearm and is a craftsman he can be a great Gunsmith if he has the desire.

There is no one thing that makes a great gunsmith, it takes many things and many years of improving everything he does. In my opinion, the minute he stops learning, or trying to improve it is time to put away his tools and quit.

Just My Opinion

J E CUSTOM