True MACHINIST gunsmiths? (a rare breed)

[dgarrett]

True Machinist are becoming a lost breed... The loss of the apprenticeship programs from big industry where many were taught... They started as machinist helpers... Maybe did nothing but grunt work for a few years... learned to sharpen cutting tools and every little thing it took to become a real machinist before they were even turned loose on a lathe or milling machine... They knew math and probably 100000 different things that have nothing to do with building a rifle...Started on small easy jobs and finally worked up...People stayed in the same job with the same companies back then and worked years to wait till the head machinist retired to take over his position.... With that said the typical gunsmith does not need that kind of Know How or that in-debt Training.... They don't need the knowledge to build every part of the space shuttle to unreal specs just to build a very very good rifle... JMO Dave

 

[shortgrass]

I have been a "job shop machinist" for over 40yrs now. Although I did spend a few years working for a major bearing manufacturer, first in production and soon in the tool room making and sharpening tools (HS tooling was still used then) and making jigs and fixtures. I never spent a day in a class room learning the trade other than the 2 yrs I spent at MCC in their gunsmithing program. Takes a lot more then "being a machinist" to be a gunsmith. Most machinists will only have a clue where to start doing barrel work, but will need some instruction first. Nor would they have an idea where to start making a stock by hand from a blank or finishing a synthetic blank (think High Tech Specialties, Brown Precision, MPI). The majority of the self trained hobbyists don't either, as work like this is avoided! Doesn't take a whole lota' "skill" to glass a barreled action and bottom metal, and add pillars to a stock some other company made and sold as 'finished', recoil pad and all. A machinist expects his work to come off the machine ready to sell, no polishing of the 'part' needed or expected! If the part is not ready to sell straight off of the machine, something is wrong! And a remedy must be found as 'handwork' wasn't priced into the job. So, as a metal finisher, he would need some instruction, as to proper polishing/metal pre before re-bluing as metal finishing has become a dying art. How many re-blues have I seen with screw holes dished out and lettering and numbers washed out from improper buffing? Enough to make me sick! "Squirting" on a coating (like GunKote or Ceracoat) doesn't require near the prep a good, professional bluing job does. A machinist doesn't use epoxy in his trade, so to learn to do a proper bedding with epoxy he'll need some guidance and pointers there as well. He may or may not make a good repairman. The 'school trained machinist' I have worked with over the years learned some about machining, not how to do repairs to broken down machine tools. And some shops have dedicated repairmen/machine tool maintenance men do that work. I have met several school trained machinists over the years. They might be able to quote Bible and verse, but on the shop floor it takes much more then that to get the job done, sometimes, and even more to work your way through the problems gunsmiths face every day. And, many were only acquainted with what was there for machine tools while in school. Every machine shop has some things in common, but every machine shop has many things that are not common to every other shop. So to summarize, the idea that a good gunsmith needs to be a "master, school trained machinist" just isn't so in the real world. Takes a thinking human being, capable of working his way through the problems a gunsmith faces every day. "Old School" gunsmithing is hand work, lots of hand work,,,,, and that is not in the machinists creed!

 

[ar10ar15man]

i know one. but in reality he is not a COMMERCIAL gunsmith. he simply makes his own only.
too much money in quality machining to waste time with gun work.
i qualify for several statements made in this thread.
i have been building target quality ar's both 223/308, for almost 20 years.
most is not hard but getting the details correct to make them shoot .2 is.
i also build target bolt action rifles.
i have lathe training from uncle sam.

the problem with most "gunsmiths" is they are taught just enough about a lathe to chamber a gun.

this thread points out the real advantage of having a machinist become a gunsmith.
my mentor has been a machinist his entire life, and when he wanted to chamber a rifle, he approached the task like any other. what is the desired end result and how do i get there? i chamber like him and like the results.

 

[KyCarl]

That's why the good ones are backlogged for years! I like 1911 pistols
Well try to get a Stan Chen.He builds one of the finest out there!
He is not taking orders. He only takes a project if he talks to you and likes your ideas?
http://www.chencustom.com/qmrc1fzqxiutjb4c6xnibivct30dhs

 

[J E Custom]

That's why the good ones are backlogged for years! I like 1911 pistols
Well try to get a Stan Chen.He builds one of the finest out there!
He is not taking orders. He only takes a project if he talks to you and likes your ideas?
http://www.chencustom.com/qmrc1fzqxiutjb4c6xnibivct30dhs

I have been a "job shop machinist" for over 40yrs now. Although I did spend a few years working for a major bearing manufacturer, first in production and soon in the tool room making and sharpening tools (HS tooling was still used then) and making jigs and fixtures. I never spent a day in a class room learning the trade other than the 2 yrs I spent at MCC in their gunsmithing program. Takes a lot more then "being a machinist" to be a gunsmith. Most machinists will only have a clue where to start doing barrel work, but will need some instruction first. Nor would they have an idea where to start making a stock by hand from a blank or finishing a synthetic blank (think High Tech Specialties, Brown Precision, MPI). The majority of the self trained hobbyists don't either, as work like this is avoided! Doesn't take a whole lota' "skill" to glass a barreled action and bottom metal, and add pillars to a stock some other company made and sold as 'finished', recoil pad and all. A machinist expects his work to come off the machine ready to sell, no polishing of the 'part' needed or expected! If the part is not ready to sell straight off of the machine, something is wrong! And a remedy must be found as 'handwork' wasn't priced into the job. So, as a metal finisher, he would need some instruction, as to proper polishing/metal pre before re-bluing as metal finishing has become a dying art. How many re-blues have I seen with screw holes dished out and lettering and numbers washed out from improper buffing? Enough to make me sick! "Squirting" on a coating (like GunKote or Ceracoat) doesn't require near the prep a good, professional bluing job does. A machinist doesn't use epoxy in his trade, so to learn to do a proper bedding with epoxy he'll need some guidance and pointers there as well. He may or may not make a good repairman. The 'school trained machinist' I have worked with over the years learned some about machining, not how to do repairs to broken down machine tools. And some shops have dedicated repairmen/machine tool maintenance men do that work. I have met several school trained machinists over the years. They might be able to quote Bible and verse, but on the shop floor it takes much more then that to get the job done, sometimes, and even more to work your way through the problems gunsmiths face every day. And, many were only acquainted with what was there for machine tools while in school. Every machine shop has some things in common, but every machine shop has many things that are not common to every other shop. So to summarize, the idea that a good gunsmith needs to be a "master, school trained machinist" just isn't so in the real world. Takes a thinking human being, capable of working his way through the problems a gunsmith faces every day. "Old School" gunsmithing is hand work, lots of hand work,,,,, and that is not in the machinists creed!

I think that the one word that describe it best is "Craftsman"

I started as a machinist apprentice and worked with some great ones
that could do almost everything with any machine but could not be classed as a gunsmith because they relied on the machine to do the work. A craftsman looks at the finished work and Never says. "That's close enough" or says "It's within Specification" He is always trying to improve his skill.

A good Gunsmith has to be first a craftsman, and then be skilled at all aspects of being a gunsmith including being skilled at Machine work as Shortgrass said. Being A good machinist helps a great deal but is not the only requirement. Also some great machinist aren't interested in being/doing gun smithing but most good gunsmiths are interested in being a good machinist.

Just my opinion

J E CUSTOM

 

[Tare]

They have been paying me as a machinist for 25 years(manual and CNC), I have no schooling or certification of any type. Obviously I don't hold certifications as valuable in determining someone's skills. Most of the machinists I have known learned on the job rather than schools or programs.

I am not a gunsmith btw.

 

[Gerard Schultz]

I will say 'amen' to most of the posts preceding. I am a South African by birth and have been building custom rifles and handguns since 1979. It is amazing how fast you learn to machine if you break your own tools instead of that which belongs to the boss. A custom gunsmith has to be a machinist, a woodworker, understand synthetic materials, a chemist and, above all, a craftsman and an artist. I do not have a single qualification to write behind my name but that does not detract from what I can do.

In 2013 I started coming to the USA and in 2016 my wife and I got our green cards. Less than 2 years to go to American Citizenship.

 

[Garry J]

Tool & Die Maker, Mold Maker, Tool & Die Welder or a Manufacturing Engineer makes a Gun Smith nor A Gun Smith make any of the above. One is limited to one's desires. I had a Winchester and Browning factory authorized Gun Smith re-blue a side by side and he ruined it. So much for the paper. Do you remember the first time you drove a vehicle, tractor or car. I was showed one pass with an International Harvester H tractor with a harrow behind it and was told to stay out of the fences. I never had to rebuild any fence. One can do what he or she sets there mind to.

 

[Longbarrel 1890 WRF]

Litehiker said it best:
"A good gunsmith will also tell his clients when he cannot do a certain operation on a firearm either because he does not have the skill or the tools, then refer the client to one who can help them." This tale is about a rem 700 LA - Kreiger barrel - jewel trigger - apa little bastered brake in a McMillan ptg stock. I will just say that I indicated to my smith that I was loading Lapua brass and Berger 140 hybrid bullets. He suggested Winchester 284 brass reformed. But I already had a 300 count of Lapua brass. After receiving my knew 6.5x284 build back from the Smith it would not chamber at 3.000 oal. I thought about seating the bullets until they chambered, but these were details we had already discussed.
After building it for 16 weeks I said Wow! I called him and he said bring it back. 18 weeks later I get a call and he said here is your rifles favorite load. (Please see data and target above)He said that he didn't touch the rifle he just gave to a bench rest shooter in southern Utah, these are the results. Come on up and get it, you ready to go.
When I arrived at his shop I asked if both brass types functioned? O yea both work great. Do you the Lapua I left? I asked. Or any of of the 284 win so I can cycle it through? Some were in here here I'll send it to you he said.
When I got home I quickly opened a box of rounds seated them to the depth shown on the load card. When bolt closed I was a happy shooter. When I pulled the bolt and the round was stilled chambered, a very expensive inoperable rifle almost went through the wall!
We as non gunsmiths customers can really be taken for a lot of time and funding. It would be nice if all of us would just admit that there are things we can do and have tools for the job and things we can't do and do not have tools for. After talking to ptg, they indicated that my smith does not have the proper reamer for Lapua brass. That would have been nice to know. I have been charged twice for a rifle that does not function unless I learn to reform 284 win brass. Also purchased the tooling to do that. Far out!!

 

[cohunt]

each "smith" has their own specialty too-- I have a good question to ask your "gunsmith"--it helps you understand some of the depth of their knowledge. Most are familiar with fluting, threading, chambering, headspacing, crowning, bedding, trigger jobs, etc--but when you start getting down to smaller details is when their depth of knowledge shows.

I looked up local gunsmiths and called 10 of them--no mind you, some of these guys can build a very nice custom bolt action rifle that put out 1/2 moa targets, but they all don't know everything.

Out of 10 local gun smiths, only ONE gave me the right answer.

my question was this "I have an unmounted AR rifle barrel, if I bring it in can you remove the barrel extension from my barrel and re-install it for me?"

9 out of the 10 did not know that the barrel extension screws on and is torqued to the barrel -- the 10th, not only told me it could be done, but that he had the proper tool to remove it and torque it back to specs, he also proceeded to tell me of the issues that could arise from doing this (gas port not aligning with index pin) --I knew the answers ahead of time but was astonished that 9 "certified gunsmiths" had no idea that the extension was a separate part that is screwed on to the barrel and some were even willing to try to lie to me about it in one way or another.

 

[Longbarrel 1890 WRF]

We all learn as we go. I had a very long discussion with the smith who has it now. He acknowledged the differences in particular brass. I was able to talk with some of clients, and I feel confident the build will be correct for my components when I receive it. I'm learning thanks.

 

[Nick Arnold]

How many gunsmiths do you know that are certified machinists? I'm talking about someone who has all the training to be a machinist with the certification to back it up.

Sadly any guy with some knowledge of firearms and a lathe capable of cutting a chamber or threading a barrel and a few go, no-go gauges is not a gunsmith.

Maybe a military trained armorer is one with a start toward being a gunsmith. However military firearms are limited in variety and unless they with an elite unit like the Army Marksmanship Training Unit they won't be ready to enter civilian gunsmithing.

Did they attend a brick-and-mortar gunsmithing school? Better, but still not a machinist.

Eric B.

I have been building most of my life, am I a Machinist? No... I am a Gunsmith.
It's very rare I meet a machinist that's also a Gunsmith or a Gunsmith that is a machinist. Building a great rifle requires more then basic knowledge of speeds and feeds. It requires a love and understanding of what makes them accurate and what it is that also makes them have problems.
I will take the school of hard knocks any day over a piece of paper. The proof lies in my work that ends up on the range rather then a pice of paper that is hung on the wall. (No disrespect to those that have gone)

 

[ar10ar15man]

my OPINION as a gun smith, you do not know what you do not know....stuff that grows on a machinist.
my question is still the same..
do you look at a request and ask what the end result is to be and then ask yourself, how do i get there, or do you just build another rifle the same way as the last ?
nothing wrong with building rifles, but i see building to the end result a bit different.
the lapua/winchester brass build is a classic example of just doing the same thing and not listening to the customer.
you do not have to answer to me, i am retired

 

[26Reload]

I have built pieces for my QD leupold rings...the originals were just short enough to allow the set screws to loosen due to not enough threads....i built those pieces from a small chunk of aluminum with a Dremel and a sander.....gunsmithing tools extraordinaire...........and they work much better.....