True MACHINIST gunsmiths? (a rare breed)

[sapper299]

How many gunsmiths do you know that are certified machinists? I'm talking about someone who has all the training to be a machinist with the certification to back it up.

Sadly any guy with some knowledge of firearms and a lathe capable of cutting a chamber or threading a barrel and a few go, no-go gauges is not a gunsmith.

Maybe a military trained armorer is one with a start toward being a gunsmith. However military firearms are limited in variety and unless they with an elite unit like the Army Marksmanship Training Unit they won't be ready to enter civilian gunsmithing.

Did they attend a brick-and-mortar gunsmithing school? Better, but still not a machinist.

Eric B.

My Dad is a gunsmith, now retiring, but was a machinist or technically an Instrument Maker, and director of the Physics Department Instrument Shop at University of Michigan for about 30 years. Navy Machinist Mate trained. He has designed and built quite a few custom rifles, from the ground up- action, stock, scope mounts and bases. Purchased components were just the barrel, trigger and scopes. Here are two of them, both .284 F Open target style rifles. He achieved High Master classification shooting his. Also is attached is an example of a custom Freedom Arms revolver

My Brother is another, trained Machinist, also works as a part time gunsmith who also makes custom muzzle loaders.

 

[Ranchpilot]

We need a rating system and national standards for gunsmithing.

The advancements the lr shooter can take advantage of today are very impressive...custom high BC bullets, actions, etc.; all push the envelope and standard of yesteryear. Many of the advancements we enjoy as lr shooters are made possible because of the passion and innovation of individuals bringing their idea to fruition. A rating system or national standard sounds like it would involve a federal agency. Seems like this would severely stifle the innovation that has brought the advancements that make lr shooting possible.

My gunsmith attended a gunsmith school, spent many hours in Fred Wells shop. Can't say he is necessarily a licensed machinists, but his work is always top notch.

National standards and ratings are concerning.

 

[BountyHunter]

morning. knowledge, experience, equipment and a certain
caliber of person make very good smithy's. no ONE can judge
a person without walking in their shoes. to me smithy's
r like reloaders, u learn an ART. read, read, read.
do I know a precision rifle maker. YES. Pete Phiefer
Hempstead, TX. Outstanding!!!
yes to bluing, no cerakote. if Pete does not do
a service, he will help u get what u want.
KNOWLEDGE by customer is a A****** in
custom rifle build.
I obtain the barrel, action, trigger, bottom box or clip,
rings, mounts, muzzle brake and H&S stock, mounting
hardware. then the parts go to the smithy.
with buying the parts urself, save $$$. still
a person is looking at $2000 in machine work,
depending on the smith. accurate rifles do
not come cheap!!!
justme gbot tum

If you have $2000 on machine work AFTer you buy your own parts, either you bought the wrong parts or or have the wrong smith.

Chambering should not be over $350 from the most expensive smith.

Threading barrel of need no more than $200

Bedding no more than $300 from anyone.

Even if custom action trying is no more than $3

 

[ar10ar15man]

If you have $2000 on machine work AFTer you buy your own parts, either you bought the wrong parts or or have the wrong smith.

Chambering should not be over $350 from the most expensive smith.

Threading barrel of need no more than $200

Bedding no more than $300 from anyone.

Even if custom action trying is no more than $3

sorry but some of your prices are low..by a bunch...talk to top COMPETITION RIFLE BUILDERS

 

[BountyHunter]

This is interesting thread and shows the wishfull thinking in some areas such as a local smith being able to lap a barrel. NOT no but hell no. The barrel mftrs train guys for months to lap barrels and they do it 8 hrs a day, and then they have you cut off the first 1" of the blank. How in the world does someone think a gunsmith who might lap a barrel once a month is going to lap without messing it up. Plus no way to measure what he has done 99.9% of the time either.

I am sure some smith who claims they can do it will pipe in as great money maker but tell us how you "measure" (or just eyeball) up to the quality of the barrel mftrs and how you learned to short cut what the barrel mftrs cannot do.

If you are having to spend $2000 for a gunsmith to machine parts AFTER you buy all the parts, you either bought the wrong parts or you have the wrong smith.

Chambering- $400 no more from the most expensive top BR smiths. Norm is closer to $200-300

Bedding- $350 tops Norm is $200-250

Muzzle threading- $100-150

Side flush cups mounted-$50-75

Tuning custom trigger - Max $75 Yes, even Jewels are tuned (I can feel creep in 2 oz jewel until tuned). Only one not is Bix'n Andy, which is absolute best but $400

Truing/timing custom action -$250 Only one that meets top LR BR standards without it is the Borden by most counts. Most others are good to go for normal LR work.

Now all of that is worst case by best smiths around.

Everything else should be good to go IF you bought right parts.

There are too **** many marketing hype smiths charging big money for guns based soley on names. It is amazing to watch people spend $5-10K on a rifle only that is only $2500 worth of parts tops and $1000 normal labor.

Now that excludes the true artisan smiths that are building show piece guns(artisan guns) as this is a LR hunting site. ie, high end wood blanks, checkered, engraving, special finish, special contour barrels, lightening cuts,

 

[shortgrass]

Gunsmith. Machinist. Two separate vocational trades. Because you are of one trade does not mean you are of the other, also. Does one have to be a machinist to be a gunsmith?. No. A true machinist has much more knowledge about machining than is needed to be a good gunsmith. And on the other hand, most gunsmiths are not machinists. Gunsmith machining is not nearly as aggressive as that of a true machinist. If a all you do is machining related to firearms, you have a long ways to go before you are a gunsmith. Two different trades.

 

[Smokepoles]

Certifications are a joke. I've worked with, interviewed, hired, etc multiple people and can say no question there is no book or school that can teach common sense or experience in any field. I've had better luck teaching kids from scratch than with "certified" people, I also know more than one very well paid and respected professional that couldn't change they're oil and barely change a channel without help. By help I mean stand by with a blank stare while someone else does it for them, but they're college educated geniuses..
No offense to any folks with certificates and I apologize for the rant. Long story short it doesn't take a wall full of certs or even a high school diploma to be good or even the best at something. Especially in a craftsmens trade.

 

[just country]

morning, Morgan Ward, a machanist, master, rifle and shotgun
builder was from California. the military at the beginning
of WWII came into Mr. Wards shop and told him he would
b working for the gov. until further notice. the day the
war ended, Mr. Ward told the gov. to get the hell out
of his shop!! Mr. Ward came to TX. in 1975 opened
a small shop here in Schertz. TX. I worked for Mr. Ward
for 2years. my honor. his work is outstanding. there is
not enough praise for the man's work. Mr. Ward passed
away 1985 at the ripe age 83. very grumpy, if u did not
know is person. loved kids. Mr. Russo and Mr. Ward have
had very very good work working skills. justme gbot tum

 

[BountyHunter]

sorry but some of your prices are low..by a bunch...talk to top COMPETITION RIFLE BUILDERS

Like I said, you have the wrong smith. I know most of the top builders and have had at least a dozen comp guns built.

So just exactly which Smith's charge more for what I listed. Give names and prices.

Exactly what other "machining" needs to be done that totals $2000?

 

[shortgrass]

Inquiring minds want to know!

 

[sapper299]

From my experience and knowledge, a gunsmith who charges above average prices for standard practice work- barrel work, stock work, triggers etc, will not be in business very long when the short list of clients who can afford him runs out. I know a lot of good, top level shops have huge waiting lists because they do great work, but I also know that they don't charge crazy high prices because they can. Any good gunsmith, or machinist for that matter, charges and gets a fair price for the work they do, its a matter of pride and craftsmanship instead of gouging the customer just because they are in demand- rush orders are a different animal though. I have seen "gunsmiths" who use Teflon tape on barrel threads to get them to lock up tight, super glue ventilated ribs in place instead of silver solder just so they don't have to re blue...these guys are just there to take your money, not to do good reputable work.

 

[J E Custom]

How many gunsmiths do you know that are certified machinists? I'm talking about someone who has all the training to be a machinist with the certification to back it up.

Sadly any guy with some knowledge of firearms and a lathe capable of cutting a chamber or threading a barrel and a few go, no-go gauges is not a gunsmith.

Maybe a military trained armorer is one with a start toward being a gunsmith. However military firearms are limited in variety and unless they with an elite unit like the Army Marksmanship Training Unit they won't be ready to enter civilian gunsmithing.

Did they attend a brick-and-mortar gunsmithing school? Better, but still not a machinist.

Eric B.

This is just a discussion, so maybe no one will be insulted by some of the comments by my self and others.

I have been on this earth for 77 years, and hunting and shooting for 55+ years. I have seen many different Gunsmiths and The best one I ever saw was self trained and had to learn all aspects of gun smithing from books and trial and error.

The worst I ever had the misfortune to deal with was a nationally known Gunsmith with an armory trained background. (He was the reason I started doing the work for Myself).

No doubt that any part of gun smithing that you can get formal training/schooling in is important and can be helpful, but it is not the only thing necessary to become a good Gunsmith.

In my opinion, A good gunsmith has the desire to be the best and a gift that allows him to excel. Money is secondary because he enjoys doing it and loves to see the outcome.

Cost can/has been the downfall of many good Gunsmiths because they forgot what got them to the top of there game and became more interested in the bottom line. They also hired a bunch of wannabees to do the machine work so they can run the business and thier quality goes down the drain.

Cost of some rifles are way to high for the work in many cases and I have always said that you get what you pay for, But any machine cost over $2,000.00 is over the top and you are paying for the name only, not the quality.

The very best of all the components shouldn't cost more than 2500.00 dollars and normally less than that. Component cost are up to the purchaser, The gunsmith has responsibility for the rest.

It would be very hard to come up with a rating system for any part or all parts of Gun smithing other than reputation. It would be nice to avoid getting bad service and quality by having some rating system, But it would not keep you out of trouble. My recommendation has always been to get to know the Gunsmith and spend time at his shop to get a feel for what kind of person and smith he is. If he is passionate about his work you will know it.

Just my opinion

J E CUSTOM

 

[Weatherby Fan]

Im very fortunate to be friends with a Gunsmith who was a Machinist, an engineer and a metallurgist, he is an amazing gunsmith.

 

[J E Custom]

sorry but some of your prices are low..by a bunch...talk to top COMPETITION RIFLE BUILDERS

Just another comment that should clear this part of pricing up.

There should be no difference in the machining cost of a target rifle and a hunting rifle because the machining is the same. (Or should be).

There are differences in components (Sites, triggers, stocks, barrels and so forth) that may change the price, but the method of gun smithing is the same. If a smith charges less for a hunting rifle, He is doing less work or less quality and not the guy you should have do your work unless you are Ok with 1-1/2" MOA.

In fact it takes more effort to make a light weight hunting rifle shoot realy well than a target rifle because of things (Barrels, stocks, triggers Etc) that are normally not used on target rifles.

There will always be differences in prices with different gun smiths, But there is a limit as to how much is to much.

A good smith will take the same care with each build and try to do his best work no matter what type of rifle it is. and just because it is not in the hands of an expert shooter, he will still throw everything in his arsenal of experience at it. It is called "Craftsmanship".

Just my opinion

J E CUSTOM