To neck size or full length size???

[Mikecr]

I don't understand the attack. I've always tried to include qualifications to my contentions, as I realize there always are. Some cartridges pretty much have to be FL sized, others do not have to be -with qualifications. Either way it comes down to your choices, you chose the cartridge the chamber the loads the dies.
Outrageous to me, is an implication that FL sizing is always required..

In reply to some of the mud slung:
Bushing dies do not FL size. They are not FL sizing dies.
The Redding dies merchandised as FL bushing dies are really bushing-body dies. Actual FL dies are different. A bushing die, unless including shoulder in the bushing, can not FL size necks.
There is a difference between the two dies, and there is a difference between Wilson inline bushing dies, and Redding threaded bushing dies. Also there is a difference between a typical die expander(which many people remove) and a Sinclair expander mandrel.

Most of my Redding body dies are custom(not all) because I do not care to size bodies unless needed. And my cartridges and chambers and loads do not need body sizing. ['Sizing' in my view is any change to dimension(yielding)] So my body dies are purely for shoulder bumping.
With shoulders below 40deg, eventually shoulders will need bumping, and I'm with Woods on needing bumping every time from that point. This is where my cases are stable in all dimensions. I can measure/cull/match H20 capacities there and keep it this way.
No more trimming brass away, because I'm not moving brass to cause the need.

You've apparently taken me out of context somewhere on the SAAMI pressures I choose. I've never loaded to any point specific to SAAMI pressures.
What I may have described in the past is that loads taken to 'MyMax'(a point where FL sizing would be required, as measured at webs) has resulted at or just below SAAMI max according to QuickLoad. With 223rem SAAMI max is 55Kpsi, 6PPC & 6BR are 58Kpsi, 6XC and 6.5WSSM are 63Kpsi. This has merely been my observation, from my local method of pressure testing.
I know people run higher pressures and that some cartridges need it to perform well. That's fine, but this is a choice and there are prices with choices.

All I've tried to do is help people understand that given certain choices, FL sizing is not required.
You keep implying that it is needed no matter what, or that brass is not stable unless FL sized. That's too broad, and so it just isn't true. I think that notion needs more qualification than so & so shooting a wallet group. Maybe some reasoning that passes tests as broad as your implications, or you could qualify your implications to the specific conditions they apply to. That would be more credible.

I think you're speaking for more shooters than you ought to be. There are hunters here, shooting a full gamut of cartridges, many wildcats. There is just no single thing(like a 6PPC) that holds as best across this board.
I've never suggested that NS only is preferable or even viable for most, but only for certain conditions(as chosen). Shoulder bumping will likely be required, again except for certain conditions. Combined, these are neither FL sizing nor NS only, and I think for some here this is a good way to go. Best of both worlds.
But that's just what I think.

You're welcome to think and say your mind, but you don't need to attack.
Reasoning is plenty good enough here.

 

[BountyHunter]

MIkeCR

It is real simple. Your first and ONLY answer is always NS regardless of the loaders experience or you even having a clue what cartridge as in this case!

Plus **** little "qualifications" as you say it for a newbie to try and decipher. This is your first post and typical of all.

You can partial NS, with an occasional shoulder bump, provided your pressures are reasonable(below SAAMI max).

Go find one of your previous posts where you "qualify" how the newbie is supposed to check safely if the rounds will even chamber. Nor have I ever seen you discuss the reliability factor.

Did you explain how to remove the firing pin with a firing pin removal tool when he chamber tests them to prevent blowing a hole in the wall or floor when he accidently touches the trigger as they will do? Did you explain how to get a Wilson Case gauge and use it.

You cannot seem to grasp the fact that 95% of the shooters here AND ALL of the newbies are going to hit SAAMI and then some at some point, go over and then back off after they realize just too much trouble but they are all trying for speed initially, like it or not. You are the proverbial pink ball in a basket of white ping pong balls and do not see it. **** few will load like you are saying.

You create the false impression that when you shoulder bump with the redding body die you are only touching the shoulder which is absolutely false. You are sizing the body with a standard Redding body die, like it or not. Jim Carstenson always gives .001 body sizing on every one of his conversions UNLESS you ask for him to just ream it out.

Do you even understand there are dies out now that ONLY bump the shoulder and not the body? That will drive a new reloader crazy trying to figure that one out.

I cannot tell you the number of times I have seen some poor smuck on a range with a stuck bolt and "They told me I only had to NS" the last 10-20 years. They invariably have a hammer or 2x4 and go to beating the bolt which knocks it off and then he has a big gunsmithing bill. Not to mention the unreliability factor.

IMO your constant harping on only NS is liking giving a Maserati to a student driver and saying "floor it"! Think about that just a little.

NS with body sizing CAN work sometimes very well IF you know all the nuances that you constantly leave out just like your first post here, but proper FL sizing will always work reliably for a newbie.

Maybe it is time for Len to get a couple of good articles on how to set up dies and the pros and cons of sizing each way with "the qualifications".

 

[woods]

We got newbies here!!?

I for one have always appreciated Mike's posts and have not noticed any of the harping on neck sizing you allude to

Always learn something from him

At least he's not always harping on FL sizing as the answer to any sizing question

 

[longrangehunterII]

Boy this thread went to he!! fast.

That said, whether or not case life is affected by FL sizing is going to be determined by more than one factor. How tight the chamber is or is not and how well the FL die was set up. Even then, case life is shortened. I challenge any body on this site to take a fire formed case, measure the shoulder from the base and run it up their FL die most of the way but not all the way. Remove it and re measure. You will find that the shoulder is further from the base than it was before it went in. The case will stretch whether you want it to or not. Once it gets rammed all the way back into the 'set up properly die' the shoulder gets bumped back to where it started, maybe a hair back. So we think that we are only setting the shoulder back a wee bit but we are first stretching the case. This is why cases separate at the case head. The more head space a rifle has, the worse the condition. The closer you can get the chamber dimensions to the FL die dimensions, the less of a problem it will be. Unfortunately for a hunting rifle this is not a preferred scenario.

As far as accuracy, most (myself included) would agree that IF there is any benefit from one to the other, it is very minimal, so much so that it isn't even a consideration.

Case life is another story. If you think there is no more case life when NS only versus FL sizing, you are only fooling yourself. Has anybody here on this site ever seen a case/head separation on brass that has only ever been neck sized only that has been fired in a chamber with proper headspace? I would be shocked if anyone reputable here has. As far as necks becoming work hardened, it is an issue. Fortunately we have a process known as annealing. The sloppier the neck area of a chamber is and the smaller you make your necks during resizing the more often you may have to anneal. Ideally, the neck area of a chamber will be such that the neck wont expand more than necessary and will spring back a bit. This will allow the neck to be sized less and offer more firings between annealings. Some BR guys anneal after each firing. Most longrange guys don't feel they need to anneal after more than 3-5 firings.

My opinion is that one of the best happy mediums is to neck size during the off season for case life and use once fired FL sized brass for hunting.

For the record, I prefer FL sizing in general. I do find myself however neck sizing most of the time during the off season to save coin. I shoot a lot and replacing brass is not cheap and prepping brass to the standards that I require is VERY time consuming. Annealing takes time too, but FAR LESS time than prepping 100 pieces of brass and only costs me the price of a disposable propane bottle once every couple of years. If I only shot a couple hundred rounds a year things would be different. When shots run into the thousands, brass life for me is a major consideration.

M

I myself would agree on all of these statements.

There are times I don't like my new fire formed brass pushed back and the body squeezed down. Only because I'd like to do the least amount of brass movement as possible during the process, and Neck Sizing does just that. They will last longer only because of less working of the brass, but occasional F/L sizing will be required sooner or later unless you're running at or near the upper limits of pressure and the primer pockets will become too lose, maybe even before they'll need F/L sizing, just depends on the gun, cartridge and the hand loader doing the work.

I have had some guns that will shoot better when F/L sized, so I give them what it likes and don't fight it.

And yes, Mike's statement is very true about a F/L die stretching the brass and causing the shoulder to actually grow longer before being setup properly or worse, cut so small that they overwork the brass which is far worse in my own opinion. Which is why a head space gauge is so important.

Just to illustrate this I took a once fired 260 Rem Lapua case and ran it through a Redding Bushing F/L die using their Competition Shell Holders and a standard RCBS one.

Starting with a once fired case that measured 1.6250" using a Stoney Point Head 'N Shoulders Gauge.

I started with a +.010" shell holder, the case grew to 1.6270". Mind you this would still chamber easily into my rifle, but would not fall out freely.
+.008" 1.6250"
+.006" 1.6230"
+.004" 1.6210"
A factory new unfired Lapua case measured 1.6200"
+.002" 1.6190"

And lastly using a standard RCBS shell holder and the ram cam rolled over slightly the case had shrunk to 1.6150" This last step was actually very difficult to press up into the die it was moving the brass that much. I wondered if it was going to break my table it was so hard. I was using Imperial sizing wax throughout the process.

So as you can see without some knowledge of reloading a person new to reloading could actually do worse with a F/L die then a neck die as far as causing excessive headspace issues. Although with that much pressure on the press I'd think someone might question what's wrong and read the pamphlet with the die on how to set it up correctly?

With that said I think the real answer lies behind or within whom is doing the work? It's not the product(s) as much as the person whom is operating the machine. Like reloading and a race car driver, it doesn't matter if you have the fastest or the most powerful car on the track to win, you have to first finish!

Is one better then the other..... that would depend on whom you ask?

 

[jrock]

Personally I like to neck size when I care about getting the most out of my ammo. After I fire a set a brass, I check to see if they again fit in the chamber with an acceptable bolt close force (I hunt so it isn't much force) and that tells me if I need to bump or FL size my brass. Other than that I neck size. I have switched to the LEE neck sizing die for the use of the collet as the case neck run out on those for me is less than 0.001" whereas my RCBS neck dies are 0.002" - 0.007" out. I've loaded up some ammo to test which one shoots better but they are collecting dust at the moment. My RCBS FL die gets <0.001" run out. I do get more life out of my brass when using neck sizing as much as possible. The brand of brass I find is more important to brass life but that is subjective. Plus, I like the feel and idea of a case that is well mated to the chamber. I know some calibers can get more out of neck sizing than others but I have not reloaded enough of them to give much info on that. I will not be neck sizing my dad's 30-06 reloads so he doesn't need to worry about chambering problems.

 

[BGL]

Since there appears to be some strong opinions on the subject I would like to hear views on what I have been doing. I use a full length die. The die is set to push the shoulder down .001-.002. To achieve this I use a Hornady Comparator. I measure the overall length of a fired case at the shoulder, then slowly move the die down until it is just under the fired length. Once the desired length is achieved and the lock ring is set everything is good, and I should not have to re-set.

An interesting observation I had during set-up of some cases is how the length to the shoulder increases about .005 as I tighten down the die. This is from the sides of the case getting rolled and the brass has to go somewhere. When the shoulder is finally compressed down to the desired height I imagine the excess brass goes mostly up the neck.

I started this approach when I noticed some brass was separating after 2-3 firings because the full sizing back to factory size allowed for a lot of case stretch, leading to the separation.

I only load shells that I would take hunting. Every trip to the range is to either practice with a hunting load, see if I can improve a hunting load, or to adjust/check a scope setting. Therefore, I want everything to work on the range as I want them to work in the field so I pay close attention to how easy a shell chambers and comes out after firing.

I only shoot bolt action rifles and only reload for my rifles.

So, am I setting myself up for failure here and have overlooked something important, or is this a sound approach?

 

[Mikecr]

I measure the overall length of a fired case at the shoulder, then slowly move the die down until it is just under the fired length. Once the desired length is achieved and the lock ring is set everything is good, and I should not have to re-set.

You should produce a fully fireformed case for reference measure of bump.
You didn't say whether so or not, but depending on cartridge shoulder angles it can take 3-5shts on brass to just reach interference from the shoulders on chambering. This is what you want to bump back from for longest life from your cases.

Also, there are factors that can affect bump other than locked down die setting, like lube amount/quality, and amount of individual case sizing w/resp to others. As you've seen, a good observation, you can cross a line with case sizing to counter intent.
You should measure bump with every case sized, as you should measure cartridge base to ogive(CBTO) of loaded. Every one, every time.

 

[cajun]

As Steve and others have said, full length size and don't look back. He also mentioned "properly set up dies" and that's where a bump gage comes in. Bump gages are your friend.

+1

Saw an interesting article where they had a bench mounted gun with remote trigger activation and compared long range accuracy between full,partial and neck sized cases, The fl sized cases were more accurate.

Most BR or target guys FL resize.They want consistent repeatable results. If you measure the shoulder bump you will not overwork your brass and you will not have chambering issues.

 

[Pdvdh]

I for one have always appreciated Mike's posts and have not noticed any of the harping on neck sizing you allude to

Always learn something from him

At least he's not always harping on FL sizing as the answer to any sizing question

10-4 and Roger that.

The biggest negative element of concern with FL sizing I've experienced over the years is when my factory FL sizing die has been excessively undersized, compared to the rifle chamber.

Having a custom sizing die made to closely fit the rifle chamber (just slightly under the dimensions of the rifle chamber) is perhaps the very best solution. Some have two chamber reamers manufactured - one for the rifle chamber and one for a custom FL resizing die or body die.

I once owned a Ruger 77 .338 Win Mag with a sloppy chamber (probably on the large side of allowable specs) and/or a RCBS FL sizer die on the small dimension side of things. I was a novice in these matters back in the mid-70s, and this was a bad recipe. I couldn't back off the FL sizing die to partial neck size with it because the base-of-case to shoulder dimension grew so much the bolt wouldn't close. This is the problem Micheal Eichele was describing in his post #18. So I had to fully run the cases into that RCBS die every time to shove the shoulder down to the point the cases would chamber in the rifle. Between that FL sizer die and the large chamber in the rifle, the brass was worked so much that incipient case head separations were visible on the brass within 3 reloads. I sold that rifle largely because it had a sloppy chamber (I never measured the chamber - just presumed the mis-match was more caused by the rifle chamber than the RCBS die).

Although my recent experience with a factory RCBS .223 FL sizing die (1982 date of manufacture on the RCBS die) leaves me wondering if that .338 RCBS die wasn't manufactured at the minimum allowable specs for the .338 WM cartridge. I recently loaded some .223 ammo for an AR15. Wasn't too worried about target accuracy so I simply purchased a used RCBS FL die set. After the fact, I decide to check some of my loaded ammo for runout, and was disappointed to measure total indicated runout (TIR) averaging around 0.007". So I started troubleshooting with all my case measuring tools, and learned that my RCBS FL sizer die was reducing outside case neck diameter down to 0.235". My fired case neck ODs measure about 0.254". So the neck in the RCBS die was .020" smaller than my fired case necks, and about 0.010" smaller than necessary to hold a bullet. My solution was to order a Forster FL resizing die with a custom honed neck diameter of 0.2435". Forster will custom hone the neck of one of their FL resizing dies for a $12 fee. I use the Forster FL die with its neck expander stem, but the neck expander now only expands my case necks about 0.001", whereas the RCBS FL die neck expander had to expand the case necks about 0.009" (0.235" up to 0.244" OD). This was the source of my excessive TIR. The Forster die works the case necks WAY less than the RCBS die. The improvement was measured in a greatly reduced TIR. TIR with the RCBS die was in the 0.005 to 0.010" range. TIR with the Forster die falls within the 0.001 to 0.0035" range.

For comparison's sake, when I called Forster to order their custom honed .223 FL sizing die, I asked and learned that their .223 FL dies are manufactured with neck diameters of 0.240". This is 0.005 - 0.006" larger in diameter than the neck in my RCBS FL die. And thru some internet research and measuring of my own .223 casings, I learned that a FL sizer die with a case neck diameter of 0.244" will allow most cases to be sized and loaded without the use of the neck expander button. The OD on my .223 shells, with bullet seated, measure about 0.2455". So Forster manufactures their .223 FL dies with the neck diameter about 0.0055" smaller than the OD of the necks on my loaded shells, with bullets seated.

FL sizing with FL resizing dies that are a close match to the rifle's chamber size helps minimize many problems associated with FL sizing of cases. That is, IF the die is set up properly.

Myself, I do a blend of the two - neck sizing and FL sizing. But I reduce my fired casing dimensions the least amount possible when FL sizing. I won't use FL sizing dies if they're too much smaller in dimension than my rifle's chamber in my bolt action rifles. The Body dies from Redding seem to be a good method to minimally resize fired casings, and I own several of them for differing cartridges I load for.

 

[Mikecr]

This should provide the best you can get:
Your Loaded OD = .2455
Size to OD = ~.2425
Minus springback = ~.2435
Expand to .2455
Minus springback = ~.2445 (1thou tension)
Expansion is important to drive thickness variance outward(away from seating bullets), and to normalize seating forces to rational and accurate.
-Further lowering of TIR, and tension variance: partial neck sizing instead of full.
-Even further reduction in TIR: inline seater die(hand die) instead of threaded.
-Another reduction in TIR and tension variance: Culling out case thickness variance
-And another reduction in TIR and tension variance: Culling out case thickness variance and then neck turning.
-Final reduction in TIR and tension variance: Tight neck clearance

When you apply most of these actions to every aspect(full body, shoulder & neck) of modern/improved cases(not an 06), put enough barrel steel around the chamber, and test/measure max pressure growth to this plan, then you make and maintain straight ammo with consistent neck tension and bullet grip -without continual annealing and trimming, etc. Things just get a lot easier.

But it doesn't happen without understanding and a plan. And barring luck(ok, serious luck with RCBS), it usually takes a custom chamber and/or custom dies. Many around here have already spent money beyond this, but don't have it.. They're still headed for step #1: Understanding

 

[Pdvdh]

Another informative post. Thanks Mike. Look's like I'd have done better to have ordered the Forster FL die with the neck honed to 0.2425"? Should have checked with you first.

I don't believe I experienced the 0.001" case neck springback on my cases. If I recall correctly my sized necks - minus the expander ball - were measuring between 0.2435 to 0.244". However I don't own a tool to accurately measure the neck ID down inside the Forster die. I'm just trusting Forster ground it to the diameter marked on the die - 0.2435". I'll be resizing 1000 or more additional cases soon, so I'll make a point to measure some more neck-sized ODs out of curiosity and for comparison to your 0.001" rule of thumb.

With this ammo, I was proceeding low key. I wasn't trying to eek out the utmost accuracy. It's for a plain-Jane CMMG AR15. Only reason I purchased the AR was because everyone else was and I didn't want to be without. Believe it or not, even with the crooked ammo produced with the RCBS FL die, this rifle shot Hornady 60gr Vmax bullets to less than 0.5 moa at 105 yds, and then again at 330 yds, on my first two accuracy tests. Just my luck. I go to great lengths to get my bolt rifles to shoot 0.5 moa and then this AR plops them into bug holes right out of the box. Wish I was so lucky with my bolt rifles - be it factory or custom.

After I saw how accurate this AR was, I then decided it was worth spending a little more money improving the quality of my reloaded ammo. I haven't shot for groups since reducing my TIR with the Forster die, and I don't expect to see groups shrink much. It was already more accurate than I had hoped for. Regardless, when I measured some RCBS reloads with as much as 0.010" TIR, it was more than my OCD could bear.

Now that I know the rifle's a shooter, I might actually hunt some vermin with it some day.

 

[MMERSS]

If something works and works well perhaps it's not BS after all. I NS brass only on 3 of my competition guns. My other competition gun I FL size. In all of my magnum hunting guns the brass is FL sized.

For those who FL size only for competition setting those records are they using a standard SAAMI die or a custom die?

Both methods have their advantages and disadvantages….just my $.02 as each will have their preference and use what works for them.

 

[Bullet bumper]

We must get out of our minds this " one OR the other mentality " .
There is no one size regime that suits all loading situations and weapon types.
What you would do for a match chambered target rifle using custom dies is totally different to what you would need to do for a sloppy chambered Auto loading on a tree stump in the forest .
There is many ways to reload and many die systems and many different gun types .
In the most average cases with bolt actions you will neck size until the case gets tight and then either full length size or body size and then start again neck sizing until they get tight again .
With the average auto , slide action , pumps and some levers generally most people like easy fitting ammo to aid slick function so they tend to full length size each time or if doing it in two stages , neck size and body size each reload .
Custom made dies for target rifles are matched to the chamber so they only do a minimal amount of sizing so in that case they can size the neck and the body each reload and still have a good consistent chamber fit each shot .
That's how I see the issue .

 

[BountyHunter]

If something works and works well perhaps it's not BS after all. I NS brass only on 3 of my competition guns. My other competition gun I FL size. In all of my magnum hunting guns the brass is FL sized.

For those who FL size only for competition setting those records are they using a standard SAAMI die or a custom die?

Both methods have their advantages and disadvantages….just my $.02 as each will have their preference and use what works for them.

Most are using custom dies or dies honed to fit the chamber very closely which are normally spec'd minimum SAAMI to start with. Most top end BR gunsmiths will have on hand the matching sizing die reamer and make custom dies as part of the package usually in bushing mode.

In the magnums it is pretty much a necessity to FL size the body for uniformity every time if uniformity and reliability are a concern. Plus no expander ball, plus annealing etc etc. Not just one thing.

There are special variation such as FL size first, expand the neck and then NS only that helps control tension variations tremendously. Plus most are annealing every time also.

JLC Precision will take a Redding body die and hone it to fit your chamber for $80,
while converting it to a FL bushing die, so if you think the sun sets on having a small unsized portion of the neck is critical, it is a simple adjustment. BTW, no expander ball which is one of the root problems with neck runout and pulling the neck brass out causing the trimming issue. Again a simple fix on any die also.

Neil Jones custom dies use shoulder/neck bushings and no expander ball, that do not allow the unsized neck and are my choice for custom dies to fit a wildcat with no matching size die available.

It is not an either or only as pointed out and I use both with my preference to FL bushing dies as the first step. It is just always saying NS only without detail explaining all the nuances is not telling the whole deal, especially if someone is new enough to have to ask the question on a LR hunting forum where reliability should be an issue. IF you have to ask, the FL size to avoid making mistakes until you learn the nuances is the smart choice IMO. Like I said not once has any of the NS only advocates told anyone on how to ensure chamber of the rounds safely before going to the field or match. Never seen a firing pin removal tool even discussed which is a necessity.

That is why it is not as simple as "always NS and bump the shoulder". Plus even the JLC honed body dies have a minimum of .001 on the body which nobody mentions, so there is absolutely no such thing as ONLY bumping the shoulder as implied. As of a year ago, he never honed a die less than that, I checked with him to verify.