neck size or full length size?????

[john g duvall]

I am glad to see that there is much to benefit from me reading this post. I am a new member here.
My father and I just had this conversation the other day. He had asked me why I wasn't neck sizing as I am only shooting my brass in one rifle? If anyone wants to give me some direction on making a decision here, I am all ears.
Thanks!

1 800 338-3220 ext. 208 will get you Mr. Lonnie Hummel. He is the chief engineer (Dies)at Hornady Manufacturing Co. in Grand Island Neb. He is the expert. He will give you everything you ever wanted to know and some things you wished you never knew. ( Bring the Doe Ray Me!) He is the "man" when it comes to dies, rifles etc. Extremely educated with no less than 5 college degrees and over 40 years of experience in the field. Oh....he's a pretty **** good shot too. Hope this helps. He is always willing to help guys out. He even helped a guy like me!

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I am glad to see that there is much to benefit from me reading this post. I am a new member here.
My father and I just had this conversation the other day. He had asked me why I wasn't neck sizing as I am only shooting my brass in one rifle? If anyone wants to give me some direction on making a decision here, I am all ears.
Thanks!

I think just about everything has been covered from different angles. Anything else you want to know?

 

[1357MAG]

I think just about everything has been covered from different angles. Anything else you want to know?

Actually there is. If I decide to neck size only, will I periodically have to full length size as well? Thanks in advance MR.

 

[1357MAG]

1 800 338-3220 ext. 208 will get you Mr. Lonnie Hummel. He is the chief engineer (Dies)at Hornady Manufacturing Co. in Grand Island Neb. He is the expert. He will give you everything you ever wanted to know and some things you wished you never knew. ( Bring the Doe Ray Me!) He is the "man" when it comes to dies, rifles etc. Extremely educated with no less than 5 college degrees and over 40 years of experience in the field. Oh....he's a pretty **** good shot too. Hope this helps. He is always willing to help guys out. He even helped a guy like me!

Thanks John. I have full faith in Hornady staff. I own some of "team red's" reloading quipment, and it says alot about their company as a whole.

 

[john g duvall]

Thanks John. I have full faith in Hornady staff. I own some of "team red's" reloading quipment, and it says alot about their company as a whole.

Roger that. Bravo two...out

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Actually there is. If I decide to neck size only, will I periodically have to full length size as well? Thanks in advance MR.

In most cases, yes. Someone posted that they neck size only until the brass will no longer chamber and throw it out and start over. that seems a little wasteful to me and why not FL size it before throwing it out anyway. Same cartridges can get a lot of neck sizes before needing a body or FL size. Some of my 300 WSM brass is on its 5th neck only cycle. My 300 RUM brass on the other hand gets too tight after only 1 or 2 firings.

But eventually the shoulder and body will need to be bumped and sized so the case will fir the chamber. I used to think that neck sizing was the best way because you ended up with a case that was fire formed to the chamber. But the doesn't necessarily help align your bullet to the bore which is what you're after. A tight neck chamber and snug fiitng concentric neck accomplish that. And that's why a lot of reloaders only parial neck size, so they get a fired formed collar on the neck to center the bullet. A case body with a little play (body or FL sized) gives the neck collar room to align in the chamber. And another advantage to Body/FL sizing is you get the same product for each reloading and reloading Is all about consistancy.

The most important thing you can for quality hand loads is to use a competiton seater.

 

[Bart B]

There's a popular belief that tight chamber necks are the best way to align the bullet with the bore. I don't believe that. Neither do others who use standard SAAMI chambers and properly full length size rimless bottleneck cases producing accuracy equalling and often exceeding what the "tight neck" folks get. Consider how a rimless bottleneck full length sized case with headspace 2/1000ths shorter than the chamber fits that chamber when the round's fired.

When the bolt's closed on the round and it has a plunger-style ejector pushing against the case head, that pushes the round as far forward in the chamber as possible. The round is now pressed into the chamber shoulder that has the same angle as the case shoulder. Which perfectly centers the round's front end in the chamber. Bolts with a Mauser style external ejector will close on the round and varying amounts of clearance between case head and bolt face as well as case and chamber shoulder will happen, but it doesn't matter. Meanwhile, at the back end of the case, the extractor's pushing the case sideways until it bears against the chamber wall. How far off center the case axis is from the chamber axis at the back end depends on the difference in diameters of the case and chamber, but it's only a couple thousandths regardless of how the fired case was resized.

Along comes the firing pin and strikes the primer. With all that force smacking the case, it's going to move foward hard against the chamber shoulder. As both case and shoulder angles are the same, the case shoulder will perfectly center itself at the front end of the chamber. It doesn't make any difference how much clearance there is between the case and chamber neck. If the case neck's off center to the case shoulder, it'll be off center when the round fires. And all that force from the firing pin also sets the case shoulder back a few thousandths; how much depends on the area of the shoulder and its angle as well as how smooth the two surfaces are. And the back end of the case may well move a bit sideways from that firing pin's impact, too.

Measure a primed case's headspace, chamber and pop that empty primed case, then measure its headspace to see how far the shoulder was set back. One can load several cartridges with each one a grain more less than max, the shoot them measuring fired case headspace after each shot. When the charge gets down to around 10% less than max, the cases will be shorter in headspace and their primers will protrude a bit indicating pressure wasn't high enough to stretch the case body back to where the head stops against the bolt face. Reducing the charge further results in the primer protruding even more. This usually proves to people that the case's front end gets centered in the chamber when it's fired and the case shoulder gets set back. But those cases may not have their shoulders moved forward far enough from full length sizing so they should be scrapped.

All of which means all rimless bottleneck cases end up a bit crooked in the chamber when the bolt's closed and the round's fired. Their back end's pressed sideways against the chamber wall but their front end's perfectly centered where it counts. Any difference in the angle between full length and neck only sized cases is insigificant. If one's ever measured the difference in bolt head positioning on a chambered round that's partially neck sized and the bolt binds a bit when closed, they might want to compare that to where the bolt head ends up on a chambered, full length sized case that has a couple thousandths headspace clearance. Especially if the bolt face hasn't been squared with the barrel thread axis. Bolt heads need to be at the same place for each shot for best accuracy.

Using gelded full length sizing dies (those without balls) to set a fired rimless bottleneck case shoulder back no more than 2/1000ths has been used to reload .308 Win. cases over 50 times; without annealing. Body diameters need be reduced only 2 to 3 thousandths. Accuracy has exceeded what benchrest records from neck sized cases are with this case so sized. Sierra Bullets' been using this process since the early 1950's for their rimless bottleneck cases used to test their bullets for accuracy. They don't weigh charges, either, just meter 'em direct into cases. Their best 30 caliber match bullets have shot into the ones (under 2/10ths MOA) from proper full length sized cases.

Regarding bullet seating, my full length sized bottleneck cases, both rimless and belted, full length sized with gelded dies end up with bullets seated with standard seating dies (such as the one that comes with a set of full length dies) just as straight as four different makes of competition dies. Bullets align themselves with case necks. If the neck axis ain't aligned with the body axis, no seater will put bullets straight in those cases.

 

[bowhunthard88]

Actually there is. If I decide to neck size only, will I periodically have to full length size as well? Thanks in advance MR.

Yes, you will . After a few loadings your round won't chamber, and you'll have to bump the shoulder back. You can get either a bump die that just does the shoulder, or FL size it once, and start over lol.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[bigbuck]

Hello "Big Buck". I use a custom built Akley Improved 300 Win Mag. Lonnie Hummel (CHIEF ENGINEER) of Hornady out in Grand Island Nebraska said I needed full sized dies($300.00!!!) If it loads properly then look at this. It is from Sept 2009 at 400 yards. Notice that my powder loads were not "on" until I hit 71.2 grains of R-22. The last three shots were at 71.2 gr. There are 8 witness signatures that verify 3 holes on the cross hairs at 400 yards. I put two of these holes there. Don Sanders put the third "hole in a hole". It measured .523 inch. covered it with a dime. It is the weapon and load that works. Donny is 5'9" tall and weighs about 240lbs. I'm 6'1" and weigh 195. Two different breathing patterns, heart beats, eye reliefs etc. with the same result. Full size works with Nosler 5 star custom brass, Fed GMM 215 primers, 71.2 gr of R-22 and seating a 210 grain Sierra HPBT Matchking(BC.650) at .001 to the lans and grooves. T. Sarver set the 1000 record using a 240 gr. Sierra BTHP Matchking out of a .338 Lapua necked down to 30 cal. 1.4 inch 5 shot group, scored 50 five x!!!! It is on the web so...check it out. My picutre won't load so write and I'll send it. [email protected]

Email sent I was told by Tim north @ broughton rifle barrels to full length size . He shoots 1000 yard competition .

I appreciate everyones help on this subject . Thanks

Bigbuck

 

[1357MAG]

Neil jones dies are great along with a custom die from your smith off the resize reamers.

However, you might have another much cheaper option if a standard case.

buy a Redding body bump dies ($25) and send it to Jim Carstenson at JLC Precision along with 10 cases fired 2x.

For about $80 he will convert the body die to a custom honed to your chamber FL bushing size die that uses Redding bushings. Turn around is normally less than 2 weeks.

Jims info is at www.6mmbr.com under the "Tools" section

I more than a few of Jims dies and work great.

BH

Ooh, this sounds like a smart option. I have a Rem. 722 in 300 Savage that I would like to try that with. Thanks!

 

[bowhunthard88]

Hornady will also perform a similar task, you can get either regular or bushing style dies. It'll run about $75 - $90. I may do this for my new 7mmRemMag.

 

[Bart B]

BountyHunter's suggestion...

buy a Redding body bump dies ($25) and send it to Jim Carstenson at JLC Precision along with 10 cases fired 2x. For about $80 he will convert the body die to a custom honed to your chamber FL bushing size die that uses Redding bushings. Turn around is normally less than 2 weeks.

...is popular among those who think (believe?) everything used in reloading a fired case has to be perfectly matched to each other. Otherwise, how else would they get those sub 2/10ths MOA groups at a couple hundred yards or so? This typically make sense to reloaders wanting their hardware to produce nothing worse than 2-bullet-diameter groups at the shorter ranges.

The facts are, this level of precision matching ain't necessary to get tiny groups at long or short ranges. A good example is what happened in 1991 at the Rocky Mountain Palma Matches.

Sierra Bullets new 155-gr. HPMK Palma bullet had just been released. Several thousand rounds of .308 Win. ammo had been handloaded on two Dillon 1050 progressive machines. One resized the necks on new Winchester brass with a Lyman neck expander button and primed them with 210M primers, the other metered 45.3 grains (2/10ths grain spread) IMR4895 into the cases then seated the 155-gr. bullets (runout was up to 3/1000ths or a bit more). Twenty rounds were picked at random to test in a Palma rifle built on a pre-'64 Winchester 70 action epoxy bedded in a wood stock. Clamped in a machine rest and zeroed on a target 600 yards downrange, those 20 shots went into 2.7 inches; a bit under 1/2 MOA. New cases, not exact charge weights, crooked bullet seating did pretty good. Considering to do that well at 600, it would have to group under 1/4 MOA at 100 yards. In the match, a couple dozen folks from around the world said their rifles (with all sorts of chamber dimensions) said it was shooting 1/2 MOA at 600 yards. Not too shabby for non-perfect matching of case to chamber.

Sierra Bullets' tests used conventional full length sizing dies with necks lapped out to a couple thousandths less than loaded round neck diameter. They now use Redding full bushing dies set up the same way. Their 30 caliber match bullets have shot into sub 2/10ths MOA groups (sometimes under 1/10th MOA) from their standard SAAMI dimension chambered barrels. One after another groups this size as ten bullets with lanolin on them (the jacket forming lubricant) were grabbed as they came out of the pointing machine then seated in full length sized cases metered with powder direct from a measure then shot.

And semiauto M1 and M14 rifles match conditioned for service rifle teams would shoot good lots of commercial .308 Win. match ammo under 4 inches at 600 yards. In spite of having to get all those moving parts back into the exact same position as possible, those new cases in sloppy mil-spec chambers still would shoot 1/4 MOA at 100 yards.

New 30 caliber belted magnum cases will shoot under 7 inches at 1000 yards with good barrels fitted the right way. These also shoot 1/4th MOA or under at 100 yards else they wouldn't shoot that well at 1000.

There ain't no such thing as perfectly round chambers and cases. So there ain't no "perfect" fit of case to chamber anyway. Folks using full length sizing dies set up correctly get several dozen reloads with .308 Win. cases and over 20 with belted magnum cases.

Best ever demonstration of accuracy attainable with full length sized cases in SAAMI chambers was several 10-shot groups at 600 yards (another Winchester 70 in a wood stock). Largest one was about 1-1/2 inch. Smallest was about 7/10ths inch.

 

[1357MAG]

Hornady will also perform a similar task, you can get either regular or bushing style dies. It'll run about $75 - $90. I may do this for my new 7mmRemMag.

This is J**, and this is my 7mm. Rem. Mag! LOL!
Let me know how that works out for ya. lightbulbBTW, I have to get over and get my '06 on paper again. I haven't shot it since I painted it!

 

[bowhunthard88]

lol .