Thoughts on antler restrictions

[LkeAF]

Every area and every state is different.
What works for one will not work for others. Hunters can be another thread,
Lack thereof. There is a steady decline in hunting and hunters. When I was younger hunting with my dad, grandfather and brothers, you would see other hunters all day. The last 2 weeks hunting with one of my brothers, we have not seen anyone else hunting. The deer I harvest this year with my bow, 51/2 years old 6 point 20" inside spread, only a 6.

Wow. Declining hunter numbers? I'm jealous. That is unheard of in the west. Where I live in Idaho we have what seems like 10X the hunters we did just 10 years ago. OTC general rifle bull elk tags that I bought during the season as an after thought 15 years ago now sell out within a few minutes of going on sale some 10 months before the season.
To the OP's question though, I would support antler restrictions here. I'm a little less concerned with them for elk, but for muleys I think we desperately need them. Way too many forkies and small 3x's being taken every year with hunters on every ridge. It's either that, or limit the number of in state tags in a given zone (non-res are already limited). Personally, I would prefer to still get a tag every year and then be forced to find more mature animals to give the young ones a chance to grow up.

 

[LkeAF]

Bingo! We have a winner for the ugly part of antler restrictions

Not trying to be disrespectful, but I would argue that that is the ugly part of a lack of hunter ethics more than antler restrictions. If you can't verify your target, don't shoot. Not too hard really....

 

[CMP70306]

OP here. Thanks for all your replies. Kind of surprising but for the most part everyone seems to be in agreement that antler restrictions are good for hunters and the herd.
Most here in my home state were opposed to restrictions at first but now most like them after seeing the results.
We have exceptions for youth, disabled and active duty service members which I agree with but senior's must abide which I disagree with.(and no I am not one)
I guess there's no way to please everyone when it comes to a management plan.

Fellow PA hunter here down in 4A, I've been hunting since 2004 shortly after antler restrictions were put in place and I look at the history of our hunting camp based on the mounted bucks vs box of racks we had in the garage. Prior to AR most guys at camp had a single 80 to 100" 7, 8 or 9pt mounted and a bunch of spike through basket 6 skull caps in a box in the garage. After AR the number of large bucks and their overall size has increased drastically.

My dad hunted for 20 years before killing his first nice 8pt that he got mounted and that became the family benchmark for my brother and I. The rule was my dad would only pay to get the buck mounted if it was a big 8pt like his. It took me three years and my brother 6 years to kill an 8pt as big as our dad's and since then the three of us have killed a dozen more bucks as big and substantially bigger than that first 8pt.

Here is a good comparison showing the difference between a monster buck then vs now. My grandfather's biggest buck on the right just prior to AR and my now second largest buck on the left, that is the third or 4th largest taken at our camp.

As for the AR acceptance I see it breaking down along two lines, generational and how invested you are in hunting. The guys that only hunt a couple days a year and the older guys from the "it's brown, it's down" years would go back to shooting spikes and forkies in a heartbeat if given the chance. On the other end the younger generation and guys that hunt a lot are far more likely to pass on smaller bucks to let them get larger regardless of AR. I personally am at the point where I'm only looking to shoot personal bests or larger so AR is irrelevant to me as I'm not shooting bucks that small anyway.

 

[bluedog69]

Wow. Declining hunter numbers? I'm jealous. That is unheard of in the west. Where I live in Idaho we have what seems like 10X the hunters we did just 10 years ago. OTC general rifle bull elk tags that I bought during the season as an after thought 15 years ago now sell out within a few minutes of going on sale some 10 months before the season.
To the OP's question though, I would support antler restrictions here. I'm a little less concerned with them for elk, but for muleys I think we desperately need them. Way too many forkies and small 3x's being taken every year with hunters on every ridge. It's either that, or limit the number of in state tags in a given zone (non-res are already limited). Personally, I would prefer to still get a tag every year and then be forced to find more mature animals to give the young ones a chance to grow up.

I don't trust the declining hunter numbers rhetoric either. In fact I have seen different agencies disputing different agencies data. In many cases I think the Feds are pushing declining numbers.
That will give way to a NEED to reintroduce wolves and lions in many places.

Anti gun people see elimination of hunting as an avenue to eliminate the NEED for guns.
There are agendas out there driving the rhetoric.

 

[TxHeartShot]

I hunt a 17,000 acre low fence operation in S. Texas under the MLDP program. We haven't introduced any genetics, but we know the neighbor bought some breeders and they got loose. We feed protein and corn year-round. We have a plan for does, culls and trophy deer and last year we had to take 85 does off the ranch. We don't shoot babies or young culls, but if a buck gets to 5 years and doesn't have 10 pts and score about 140 gross...boom. The big boys get bigger and the little guys don't get to breed.

 

[cajun]

You need to be careful on many of these studies. They did them in "closed herds" with little genetic diversity.

They also use dmap data from hunting clubs and land owners. There age and nutrition studies are generally controlled environments. One very interesting study they darted and gps collard several bucks. A couple of those bucks roamed quite a bit. Including one who regularly swam the miss river.

 

[cajun]

I have hunted the same general area of south west Mississippi for 35 years or so. Including some private property a friend has owned 30 plus years. Back then most bucks didnt make it past 1 1/2. Ratio was way out of wack. Antler restrictions have let most bucks make it to 2 1/2. Which has increased the age structure. We kill a lot more 3-4 yo deer. I think also the baby boomers who are the largest age demographic are older and have moved past the I need to kill every buck I see mentality. The one downside to point restrictions is high grading. That is your really good deer get killed early because their racks are bigger. I think also that deer are like people. Not everyone grows up to be a 6-3 240 stud lol. The average size of our average 3.5 yo has not changed much in the last 20 years. There are just more of them now which means a higher chance
of a few becoming really good. Dirt matters a lot. Poor dirt makes poor deer generally.

 

[Rockbottom]

I'm a Texas ranch owner. One ranch is on the Rio Grande river in the trans-Pecos region of Texas. It has white-tail deer and it has mule deer, which Texas Parks and Wildlife (TPWD) call desert black-tail deer. Beginning last year a new 18" minimum spread regulation applied. This year it went up to 20" minimum. Doe black-tails are archery only, one per year (TPWD), zero by my ranch rules. In the past 35 years sheep ranchers gave up ranching and controlling predators. Nobody's killed a buck bigger than 18" since then either. This year black-tail season was 17 days, starting after Thanksgiving. Some years we don't kill any deer. Mountain lions and coyotes now kill more deer than humans. Mountain lions hunt the feeders too, and mostly kill bucks there. My theory: bucks try to protect the does, which will hopefully keep the herd numbers up in future years. So what's the use of antler restrictions?

 

[CMP70306]

Not trying to be disrespectful, but I would argue that that is the ugly part of a lack of hunter ethics more than antler restrictions. If you can't verify your target, don't shoot. Not too hard really....

The issue is that there are plenty of guys happy with taking any legal buck and most of them generally only hunt the rifle opener and they are the ones shooting the on the fence bucks. So if you only hunt a day or two a year that little buck might be the only chance you get to take a buck. Additionally driving is common here so many times the deer are moving by and you have a short window to decide and take your shot. This can unfortunately lead to mistakes.

And it doesn't take much to be out, a 7/8" brow tine or a 3-1/4" spike can get you fined. We have a spike on camera with spikes that curve outwards and lay behind his ears and I could easily see him getting shot by mistake for a doe as I've made the mistake while reviewing game camera pics.

The game commission advertises turning in your mistake kill for a $25, what they don't tell you is that they retroactively declare it negligence and bump that fine to $300 to $500.

I don't trust the declining hunter numbers rhetoric either. In fact I have seen different agencies disputing different agencies data. In many cases I think the Feds are pushing declining numbers.
That will give way to a NEED to reintroduce wolves and lions in many places.

Anti gun people see elimination of hunting as an avenue to eliminate the NEED for guns.
There are agendas out there driving the rhetoric.

There are absolutely declining numbers here in PA, we went from a high of 1.3 million hunters down to around 850,000 now.

 

[SteveBurton]

I believe this is a multi-faceted issue and depends on different factors. I used to live in MD. I hunted in MD, PA and VA. Now I live in AZ and hunt in AZ and PA so I have seen several different areas. I think these points are valid. I'm sure there are more.

What area are you hunting (the quality of forage)
How big is the deer population
Quality and health of deer population
Number of hunters
Number of tags available

Take MD for example. You could buy a license over the counter which included 3 bucks and 10 doe per season. An extra buck tag per season was $5. The deer population is huge and the number of hunters has lowered over the years. When I hunted there, you could get 6+ bucks per year and an unlimited number of does depending on how you worked the available areas. Archery started Sept 15th and ended on Jan 31st. Shotgun/rifle season was a couple of weeks long. Muzzleloader was a couple of weeks also so you had a lot of time in the woods. It was no big deal to pass on smaller deer waiting for a bigger one. You could shoot a smaller buck and still go out for a bigger one. I don't think AR would be necessary or make any difference in a state like MD.
In PA, you can buy a license over the counter but only shoot 1 buck a year. Years ago, the whole state would shut down for the first 2 days of buck season. So you had that 'if it's brown, it's down' mentality. I remember people hated it when PA implemented antler restrictions. On our property, we had a rule that we didn't shoot does so the herd could get bigger. Now, we have deer coming out of our ears and bigger bucks than we have ever seen. When we used to shoot ragged 4-6 pointers, now we have big 8s and nice 9-10 pointers. I do think it does a lot of good in a state like PA.
Then you have AZ where you have a lottery for everything under the sun and more hunters applying every year. The area doesn't support a big deer population so I get it, but it still sucks. So when you are lucky enough to get drawn and only get 1 week to fill your tag, I can see people shooting little spikes when it's the only thing they have seen. There are big deer to be found if you are lucky enough to get drawn in those areas and have the time to put in for scouting. Would antler restrictions work to allow the bucks to grow bigger in AZ? Probably, but you would also have a lot of angry hunters that aren't able to fill their tags that they waited years to get. Antler restrictions are a catch 22 in a state like AZ. I would lean more towards a no.

 

[birddog 68]

Not trying to be disrespectful, but I would argue that that is the ugly part of a lack of hunter ethics more than antler restrictions. If you can't verify your target, don't shoot. Not too hard really....

No disrespect taken. Too many are scared if they don't shoot it someone else over the hill will. I wish everyone had great restraint but that'll never happen.
Peoples judgment on whether to turn in a mistaken kill may be the monetary fine (usually $500) or just being embarrassed. I've never made a mistake with AR but I will admit that I have shot a button buck thinking it was a doe. I was embarrassed by this but this made me be 100% certain after this.

 

[orkan]

Too many are scared if they don't shoot it someone else over the hill will. I wish everyone had great restraint but that'll never happen.

Yup, that's a losing battle.

People, in general... suck. They are shallow, self-centered, NPC's that will never delay when instant gratification can be had right now. They have to "get theirs" and better yet if they can deny someone on the other side of the hill. Many have devolved to the point where they don't care if they get theirs, as long as they can make sure someone else doesn't get theirs either.



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[skipglo]

2 years ago Texas made a proposal to instate a 20" minimum outside spread on mule deer in a lot of counties. I voted for it. Sure I've got some 7 year old deer that might not hit the minimum, but at least it keeps my neighbors from shooting every 3 year old branch antlered deer they see. I think it's helped to reduce road hunting and poaching as well, because let's face it. Young mule deer are some of the dumbest creatures on earth.

Spread? Worst of the worst for hunters...best of the best for Game wardens.....cash cow....points anyone can see and count at any distance ( given the right optics.)..easy...if you can't count em' they're too far. But how do you possibly tell 17" from 20" at 200 yards......not good....that will leave alot of wasted animals in the woods when the hunters tape measure comes out! Bull Elk here are 3pts or better in a majority of units in Alberta and a smaller area 6 pts or better. Try doing a measurement in a BDC reticle or lesser... bad news.....jmho
EDIT: Actually.....try to measure 3" with ANY SCOPE....AT ANY DISTANCE!

 

[Panhandlin Pat]

Spread? Worst of the worst for hunters...best of the best for Game wardens.....cash cow....points anyone can see and count at any distance ( given the right optics.)..easy...if you can't count em' they're too far. But how do you possibly tell 17" from 20" at 200 yards......not good....that will leave alot of wasted animals in the woods when the hunters tape measure comes out! Bull Elk here are 3pts or better in a majority of units in Alberta and a smaller area 6 pts or better. Try doing a measurement in a BDC reticle or lesser... bad news.....jmho
EDIT: Actually.....try to measure 3" with ANY SCOPE....AT ANY DISTANCE!

It's not hard, average width of ears in my area in alert position is 20-22". I don't know a game warden in the affected area that will issue a citation for an honest mistake/violation. It's actually written in the law that they can't for x number of years after it was stated. Easy to tell the difference in a 3 year old with a 17" outside spread and a mature deer with a 20" plus.

They ran a trial for the restriction in 5 counties for 5 years prior to instating it, and made the results public. Check ins were mandatory. 1% of bucks harvested didn't meet criteria.

Is it perfect? No. But my cousins and their $50 bushnel binos don't have trouble picking out legal deer from not.