The PRC die "problem"

[BrentM]

On one of the PRC clicker issue threads, someone actually split some of the tighter sizing dies on I believe ADG brass. My takeaway on it was that it doesn't completely address the problem as the AW reamer does. Trying to squeeze the solid web of brass at the base is a problem especially on tough brass like ADG and Lapua. If a smaller die fixes it for you then awesome but it may or may not do it for someone else. For one rifle, it is a less expensive solution if it works.

Not convinced of that at all. If depends on how hot they run the brass. Some guys get 150-200 fps over most published high end velocity and then wonder why brass life is short. For me the whidden is an easy fix and with proper lube it is easy to size. I run the short handle on a Co-ax press and it's easy. Small base does have been around a long time to address this issue on other chambers. Whidden told me this is the issue they had with Sherman and it's why whidden supplies the dies dies for sherman. He knew exactly what the issue was when I spoken to him.

Also, I have no clue what spec they requested. Very possible they went too far with the undersize. Too many variables.

 

[L.Sherm]

The PRC clicker problem is not just specific to the PRC either with Lapua and ADG. If you know anything about 20VT it has the same problem with a reamer speced for 221 fireball Remington brass.
You have to open up the web area also on a reamer with Lapua brass dies will not fix the clicker issue either.

 

[BrentM]

The PRC clicker problem is not just specific to the PRC either with Lapua and ADG. If you know anything about 20VT it has the same problem with a reamer speced for 221 fireball Remington brass.
You have to open up the web area also on a reamer with Lapua brass dies will not fix the clicker issue either.

Fixed mine with adg and lapau. Zero issues once sized with my whidden die. The only reason clickers are a thing is due to the web not having enough expansion room to curve the pressure. Fix that and it's just like firing virgin brass to a degree.

I suppose I could use my reamer on my proof barrel and see what happens in a more controlled experiment to help others. Right now my 18" and lapau sized with whidden is shooting lights out and don't really want to screw around with it all right now. I got predators to kill.

 

[L.Sherm]

My guess is your not running the upper node. I guess Alex doesn't know what he's talking about then, there's way to many people who are having the clicker problem for it to be 1 off. The problem goes away a soon as his redesigned AW2 reamer is ran in and then use the exact same die afterwards.
Its also not an anomaly the same thing happens with a 20VT

 

[wasskeet]

I had some ADG, on 3rd firing, that had been shoulder bumped .002" and good in all respects other than at datum line. Would not chamber. Extremely hard to eject on 2nd firing with medium load. Broke an ejector and had to drive some out with cleaning rod. A dose of the AW2 reamer and those brass are now good for use.

 

[BrentM]

My guess is your not running the upper node. I guess Alex doesn't know what he's talking about then, there's way to many people who are having the clicker problem for it to be 1 off. The problem goes away a soon as his redesigned AW2 reamer is ran in and then use the exact same die afterwards.
Its also not an anomaly the same thing happens with a 20VT

Clearly I don't disagree with the aw2 or I wouldn't have purchased a 350.00 reamer. Kind of off base comment on your part. Also, I am running upper end of the charge range for sure, evident in the velocities I've posted. Whidden clearly knows a thing or two as well. It just seems there a different methods to get similar results. Pick your favorite and do what you want. I have both, fans of both, just know that a custom whidden does in fact work like it should. It's not a difficult concept.

 

[Schw15]

Custom whidden or off the shelf die from them?

 

[BrentM]

Custom whidden or off the shelf die from them?

A standard die does not address the issue with lapau and adg that I am aware of. It is cut to saami spec. Your die needs to be undersized another .001-.0015 or you ream it to .533 vs .532, so open it .001. The concept is that your standard will now give you back the .002ish expansion clearance you need. Most brass comes .5295 at the .200 line. After a healthy dose of firing forming the thick brass expands to the chamber and retains that expansion at .5305-.531 with a standard die. To address that, open the chamber to .533 or go with a die that sizes to .530. Some of my brass stayed at .5315 with a standard die and they had to be beat out of the chamber even though the fed into it fire before firing. Before the aw2 reamer was designed I bought the whidden.

 

[JAYgs8163]

Clearly I don't disagree with the aw2 or I wouldn't have purchased a 350.00 reamer. Kind of off base comment on your part. Also, I am running upper end of the charge range for sure, evident in the velocities I've posted. Whidden clearly knows a thing or two as well. It just seems there a different methods to get similar results. Pick your favorite and do what you want. I have both, fans of both, just know that a custom whidden does in fact work like it should. It's not a difficult concept.

There is also mention by others that the Whidden dies overwork the brass. Alex tested all of this and his best determination was to modify the chamber ever so slightly. I don't think he'd have invested the numerous hours, days, and money if the the fix was as simple as a die. You mentioned above that "guys are running 150-200 fps over published max loads" but there are so many combos out there of loads that there is no data. People will usually always push the limit. Anyways…. Not ariguing or criticizing just saying that the best possible fix IMO is the AW2 reamer and then there's no question about what works for dies, they then all work. Also, MANY barrel makers and smiths have all switched to the modified reamer.

 

[L.Sherm]

A standard die does not address the issue with lapau and adg that I am aware of. It is cut to saami spec. Your die needs to be undersized another .001-.0015 or you ream it to .533 vs .532, so open it .001. The concept is that your standard will now give you back the .002ish expansion clearance you need. Most brass comes .5295 at the .200 line. After a healthy dose of firing forming the thick brass expands to the chamber and retains that expansion at .5305-.531 with a standard die. To address that, open the chamber to .533 or go with a die that sizes to .530. Some of my brass stayed at .5315 with a standard die and they had to be beat out of the chamber even though the fed into it fire before firing. Before the aw2 reamer was designed I bought the whidden.

I have custom whidden dies on my 30-28 and still starting to get clickers its not a Whidden die problem either its because sizing only .0025 down at the datum is not enough on ADG brass.
The easy button is opening up the Web area like Alex's AW2.
I really like John's dies and have several of them its not his die thats the problem ive tried twice with his dies to solve my clicker issue.
That being said also it can still be a problem especially on 700 actions if you dont have good primary extraction.

 

[BrentM]

There is also mention by others that the Whidden dies overwork the brass. Alex tested all of this and his best determination was to modify the chamber ever so slightly. I don't think he'd have invested the numerous hours, days, and money if the the fix was as simple as a die. You mentioned above that "guys are running 150-200 fps over published max loads" but there are so many combos out there of loads that there is no data. People will usually always push the limit. Anyways…. Not ariguing or criticizing just saying that the best possible fix IMO is the AW2 reamer and then there's no question about what works for dies, they then all work. Also, MANY barrel makers and smiths have all switched to the modified reamer.

Yeah both of those guys are making money and both have their marketing plan. I don't see the logic necessarily in the over work. Both reduce the brass size the same amount in the end. You either expand to 532 or 533 and work the brass back .002. I'm not buying off on the claim it overworks yet. I have more concern you are blowing the base out more than the thicker web creating a stretch, but I have no facts to be overly concerned. Time is the telling tale of all this. I have 9 reloads on the adg using whidden, I have 2 reloads on lapau using whidden. I have 10 reloads on hornady using a standard Die. Not enough data or time for me to be convinced which is better. If I had known a reamer was going to be designed I would have just went the reamer route. As things worked out, I have both now. Not many people, if any, have both and barrels I can play with. However, I know what I'm currently doing works as it should and I don't make any money off the process. Heck before all this I modified a 300 prc die and cut .25" off the bottom to get the same result. I really don't care what others decided to do with their money and time, I'm just giving examples of options of things that clearly work.

 

[L.Sherm]

You can't size the web back farther than about .001 bigger than new on ADG and Lapua i split a Redding die trying

 

[jpndave]

My guess is your not running the upper node. I guess Alex doesn't know what he's talking about then, there's way to many people who are having the clicker problem for it to be 1 off. The problem goes away a soon as his redesigned AW2 reamer is ran in and then use the exact same die afterwards.
Its also not an anomaly the same thing happens with a 20VT

Clearly I don't disagree with the aw2 or I wouldn't have purchased a 350.00 reamer. Kind of off base comment on your part. Also, I am running upper end of the charge range for sure, evident in the velocities I've posted. Whidden clearly knows a thing or two as well. It just seems there a different methods to get similar results. Pick your favorite and do what you want. I have both, fans of both, just know that a custom whidden does in fact work like it should. It's not a difficult concept.

Yeah both of those guys are making money and both have their marketing plan. I don't see the logic necessarily in the over work. Both reduce the brass size the same amount in the end. You either expand to 532 or 533 and work the brass back .002. I'm not buying off on the claim it overworks yet. I have more concern you are blowing the base out more than the thicker web creating a stretch, but I have no facts to be overly concerned. Time is the telling tale of all this. I have 9 reloads on the adg using whidden, I have 2 reloads on lapau using whidden. I have 10 reloads on hornady using a standard Die. Not enough data or time for me to be convinced which is better. If I had known a reamer was going to be designed I would have just went the reamer route. As things worked out, I have both now. Not many people, if any, have both and barrels I can play with. However, I know what I'm currently doing works as it should and I don't make any money off the process. Heck before all this I modified a 300 prc die and cut .25" off the bottom to get the same result. I really don't care what others decided to do with their money and time, I'm just giving examples of options of things that clearly work.

@BrentM you are absolutely coming off that way and I can see where @L.Sherm is at though maybe his reply could have been candy coated a bit more. We get that the custom Whidden dies are working for you in your rifle. That may or may not be the case for others. The AW reamers will fix the root cause. Until this post, (recent stuff at least) your posts seem to recommend the Whidden as a superior/cheaper fix where really they are more of a band-aid effective in some instances rather than cure the root cause.

As far as profit/marketing, where is AW getting anything from this other than if he chambers a rifle personally? He has released his print for everyone with no financial gain that I have seen anywhere on the reamers, all three. Maybe so for Whidden but that is what they do so good for them.

 

[BrentM]

@BrentM you are absolutely coming off that way and I can see where @L.Sherm is at though maybe his reply could have been candy coated a bit more. We get that the custom Whidden dies are working for you in your rifle. That may or may not be the case for others. The AW reamers will fix the root cause. Until this post, (recent stuff at least) your posts seem to recommend the Whidden as a superior/cheaper fix where really they are more of a band-aid effective in some instances rather than cure the root cause.

As far as profit/marketing, where is AW getting anything from this other than if he chambers a rifle personally? He has released his print for everyone with no financial gain that I have seen anywhere on the reamers, all three. Maybe so for Whidden but that is what they do so good for them.

Well there are 6 whidden dies in my circle and all work just fine. I never said the dies where superior, it's an option that is cheaper than buying your own reamer, or it used to be, which I also mentioned. It seems people get way more emotional about this then they should. As soon as I go against the grain of the aw2, people argue and want to discount my opinion and experience. It's hard to not be a bit defensive when you're told it won't work blah blah and yet it sure the heck does. I get it but for my immediate circle No one is having issues with the whidden die. If the spec for the standard die cut was made just a bit tighter I'm willing to bet this thread wouldn't even exist. I don't know what a whidden cost today so maybe all that is a mute point and everyone should go to the smith and open the chamber. I assumed intellectual rights etc are part of the aw2, but I don't know that. Maybe not. It's not really a concern I suppose who makes money off their products or designs. You can spec your own die with anyone who makes a custom die too. Whidden just seemed to know exactly how to address the issue when I talked to him which built a lot confidence in the process. Maybe it was dumb luck, but with a handful of dies out there with this spec, it seems to be working for now. We also have Sherman who has an improved design that addresses the issue to I believe. I don't know much about it but he seemed to get a lot of heat for it.