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TARGET BULLETS ARE NOT HUNTING BULLETS!

When the amount of mass delivered is large enough softies work great, as evidenced here.
But if I want to break an animal down where he stands I need tougher construction. For the long angle away, also makes me feel better having a bonded bullet that expands.
Im a fan of bullets that do 2 things well, and do them consistently at very close ranges or maybe not close at all.
All of us have to put them where they do their best work, regardless of preference though.
It is very interesting to see the results of various types, from you guys that put em to work in real world circumstances.👍
Im about to try some LRHT Bergers this year for the first time, 153.5 gr 6.5's between 3100-3200 MV.
 
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180ELDM at 90 yards
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162ELDM at 538yards
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Awesome killing bullets!
 
In my 7mm Allen Magnum that i have been building for customers close to 20 years now, i have found that the berger vdl hunting bullets in the beginning and now the elite hunters tend to shed significantly more bullet weight then when using the target or hybrid target bullets from berger. The reason is the target versions have a slightly thicker jacket and at the velocity potential of the 7mm AM, 3300-3500 fps with 180-195 gr, they actually have better expansion characteristics then the thinner jacketed hunting bullet versions.

the eld bullets tested in the same rifle X vs M, again loaded into the 3400-3500 fps range showed that they simply over expanded no matter which was used. Now on thin skinned game or at ranged outside 600 yards, performed just fine.

point being, you have to match the projo your using with the chambering you have and the game you will be targeting. In many applications, match bullets perform EXTREMELY well on medium sized big game.

the one i would never recommend would be sierra matchkings in calibers smaller then 30 cal. Have personally witnessed wildly inconsistent expansion characteristics with these in medium to small big game.
 
In my 7mm Allen Magnum that i have been building for customers close to 20 years now, i have found that the berger vdl hunting bullets in the beginning and now the elite hunters tend to shed significantly more bullet weight then when using the target or hybrid target bullets from berger. The reason is the target versions have a slightly thicker jacket and at the velocity potential of the 7mm AM, 3300-3500 fps with 180-195 gr, they actually have better expansion characteristics then the thinner jacketed hunting bullet versions.

the eld bullets tested in the same rifle X vs M, again loaded into the 3400-3500 fps range showed that they simply over expanded no matter which was used. Now on thin skinned game or at ranged outside 600 yards, performed just fine.

point being, you have to match the projo your using with the chambering you have and the game you will be targeting. In many applications, match bullets perform EXTREMELY well on medium sized big game.

the one i would never recommend would be sierra matchkings in calibers smaller then 30 cal. Have personally witnessed wildly inconsistent expansion characteristics with these in medium to small big game.
KIRBY! You're a frontline authority on these matters as far as I'm concerned.

I've heard this about smks before….

I have the same suspicions abojt most bthp type hollow points.

Any experience with the basic hpbt match by hornady, or the lapua scenar, or the Nosler custom competition and RDF bullets you could give voice to?
 
KIRBY! You're a frontline authority on these matters as far as I'm concerned.

I've heard this about smks before….

I have the same suspicions abojt most bthp type hollow points.

Any experience with the basic hpbt match by hornady, or the lapua scenar, or the Nosler custom competition and RDF bullets you could give voice to?
My experience with most of the hpbt you mentioned has been very similar to that i have witnessed using the SMK. Smaller then 30 cal and you really start to see inconsistent terminal performance. One example may be perfect expansion, next, pencil hole through from impact to exit, next could be total bullet break up on impact or very shallow. Honestly, the most common issue i have seen is penciling through target….. punch lungs, you have a dead animal but you may have a mile long tracking job…..

above 30 cal and especially 338 and above, performance changes dramatically. Now that may simply be due to the larger frontal area
and higher energy payload displacing more vital tissue through penetration even if expansion is limited but end results are more consistent.

for this reason, i tend to stay away from the conventional HPBT designs for big game hunting.

now as soon as i type this someone will be hollaring about me mentioning bergers……. Jacket thickness is a big issue. Bergers tend to run pretty thin, even their thicker match versions. They have been significantly thinner then sierras as well as the hornady HPBT i have measured. Similar to nosler but nosler jackets seem to be harder.

again, this all comes down to matching the bullet to the velocity range and game to be hunted.

if i were making a recommendation to a customer using my 7mm Allen Magnum for use on pronghorn and deer, pretty much any quality bullet will work. If they want to use that rifle on a mule deer/elk combo hunt, my recommendation would be significantly different focused more on the elk then deer.

had an example of this last week. Shipped a customers 338 Allen Magnum. For those that dont know, this is one of my wildcats based off the huge 408 cheytac parent case. 300 gr berger hybrids are my standard choice even for long range hunting with velocity potentials in the 3300-3400 fps ranges. This particular customer wanted the ability to engage bull elk at any range from 0 to 1500 yards.

well the berger would do great from 800 to +2000 yards but inside 800, and especially inside 500 yards, you would be asking for trouble as far as penetration would be concerned. As such recommended either the 285 gr Hammer or 280 gr barnes LRX as i have tested both and proven they both would easily handle his 0 to 1500 yard requirements with great terminal performance.

now if it would have been one of my 338 Allen Xpress, again the berger 300 gr is my go to choice for this one, but now velocities would be in the 2900-3000 fps range. With this round, you may still need to be a bit careful with shot placement inside 200 yards but not nearly the issues as the 338 Allen Magnum would have with its 400-500 fps higher muzzle velocities.

then compare that to something like a 338 rum or 340 wby and loaded with a 300 gr berger you would be in the 2700-2800 fps range and at those velocities, your good at nearly any close range impacts.

with that said, if your intentionally hunting game such as elk and moose and want the ability to take close range shots on possibly hard angling targets, there would be no reason to choose ANY HPBT bullet design with the great bullet options we have today for high stress impact situations.

again, most bullets will have their advantages and disadvantages, no bullet is perfect in all situations, some are pretty good at most but if we can set our rifles up for use from 0 to 2000 yards, choosing a proper bullet for our needs should not be that much of a challange, especially with the wealth of information we have at our finger tips today. 👍
 
My experience with most of the hpbt you mentioned has been very similar to that i have witnessed using the SMK. Smaller then 30 cal and you really start to see inconsistent terminal performance. One example may be perfect expansion, next, pencil hole through from impact to exit, next could be total bullet break up on impact or very shallow. Honestly, the most common issue i have seen is penciling through target….. punch lungs, you have a dead animal but you may have a mile long tracking job…..

above 30 cal and especially 338 and above, performance changes dramatically. Now that may simply be due to the larger frontal area
and higher energy payload displacing more vital tissue through penetration even if expansion is limited but end results are more consistent.

for this reason, i tend to stay away from the conventional HPBT designs for big game hunting.

now as soon as i type this someone will be hollaring about me mentioning bergers……. Jacket thickness is a big issue. Bergers tend to run pretty thin, even their thicker match versions. They have been significantly thinner then sierras as well as the hornady HPBT i have measured. Similar to nosler but nosler jackets seem to be harder.

again, this all comes down to matching the bullet to the velocity range and game to be hunted.

if i were making a recommendation to a customer using my 7mm Allen Magnum for use on pronghorn and deer, pretty much any quality bullet will work. If they want to use that rifle on a mule deer/elk combo hunt, my recommendation would be significantly different focused more on the elk then deer.

had an example of this last week. Shipped a customers 338 Allen Magnum. For those that dont know, this is one of my wildcats based off the huge 408 cheytac parent case. 300 gr berger hybrids are my standard choice even for long range hunting with velocity potentials in the 3300-3400 fps ranges. This particular customer wanted the ability to engage bull elk at any range from 0 to 1500 yards.

well the berger would do great from 800 to +2000 yards but inside 800, and especially inside 500 yards, you would be asking for trouble as far as penetration would be concerned. As such recommended either the 285 gr Hammer or 280 gr barnes LRX as i have tested both and proven they both would easily handle his 0 to 1500 yard requirements with great terminal performance.

now if it would have been one of my 338 Allen Xpress, again the berger 300 gr is my go to choice for this one, but now velocities would be in the 2900-3000 fps range. With this round, you may still need to be a bit careful with shot placement inside 200 yards but not nearly the issues as the 338 Allen Magnum would have with its 400-500 fps higher muzzle velocities.

then compare that to something like a 338 rum or 340 wby and loaded with a 300 gr berger you would be in the 2700-2800 fps range and at those velocities, your good at nearly any close range impacts.

with that said, if your intentionally hunting game such as elk and moose and want the ability to take close range shots on possibly hard angling targets, there would be no reason to choose ANY HPBT bullet design with the great bullet options we have today for high stress impact situations.

again, most bullets will have their advantages and disadvantages, no bullet is perfect in all situations, some are pretty good at most but if we can set our rifles up for use from 0 to 2000 yards, choosing a proper bullet for our needs should not be that much of a challange, especially with the wealth of information we have at our finger tips today. 👍
You could write a book on this subject. Thanks for dropping bits of knowledge on the forum. :)

Regards, Guy
 
Here's another for all the nonbelievers. Exit hole. Went through the onside shoulder and missed the offside shoulder. He made it 25 yards with blood everywhere from the hit to where he died. 603 yards shot by my lovely wife. She's deadly! 😜

Baseball sized exits are the norm for the 180eldm. If you zoom in you can see the organs, it blew the ribs out.
IMG_9759.jpeg
 
6 animals taken this year with Berger hybrids in 6mm and 65 this year in my household, all I can say........didn't go 20. 430-670y engagements on all them.
So far this year, 6 animals with 180 eldms and performance was incredible. The worst blood trail I've had this year and the farthest recovery was a double lung, pass through with a mono! I was lucky to find the animal. Started making circles and there it was, just stumbled onto it.
 
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