Scope field evaluations on rokslide

[dogz]

Uh oh... the dude said the quiet part out loud. ^

People can't shoot.




... and he's right, by the way. I could throw a thousand dollar bill on the ground next to a shooter and say "that's yours if you hit 20 of those 1/2" dots down there at 100yds with 20 shots," and my money would be pretty safe.



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Amen to that!

 

[Darryle]

Quick trig work shows a .008° angle shift at 100 yards = .5" at 100 yards.
To accomplish that .008° shift at the scope, rings, bases or pic rail, the shift needs to be .0007" over 5" of the attachment points- anywhere. That does not include the scope internals getting jarred.
Dropping something onto a hard surface is the same as hitting it with a hammer (controlled).
So if there is .0007 clearance in screws/holes (there is) or pic rail to ring mounting (there is) or rings to scope tube (usually is) and scope cap screws (there is), that is a lot of opportunity to move something attaching the scope to receiver. The internals of the scope moving adds to that shift.
Food for thought.

You didn't tell us math was on the quiz......my brain aches, I quit

 

[akmtnhnt]

Uh oh... the dude said the quiet part out loud. ^

People can't shoot.




... and he's right, by the way. I could throw a thousand dollar bill on the ground next to a shooter and say "that's yours if you hit 20 of those 1/2" dots down there at 100yds with 20 shots," and my money would be pretty safe.



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No no no, this is long range hunting. Not only is everyone an expert marksman that consistently holds moa all day(in 3 shot groups, off a bench and has never put rounds on paper past 100y), but it's moa all day. But the vast majority are knocking down elk at 1k every weekend.
Additionally, every single one of us is THE statistical anomaly in which recoil doesn't effect our group size whatsoever(what are you a little girl?).
Also, it's completely irrelevant that we can't hit a 5MOA target at 500 yards with a single cold bore shot. Our max hunting distance is 1000.

 

[JustMe2]

I haven't experienced this. I think it was only the 315M that folks were seeing affected, and only in the presence of a faulty ring with in excess of 25 in/lbs of force. This issue was created due to faulty rings (mostly) and rings with odd design features (in part) which in combination put strange pressures on the scope tubes. Essentially clamping the scope tube and bending it out of round in very specific places. These types of rings are an issue with nearly every scope made, though very few want to acknowledge it.

I even have a few of my 315M's mounted with 25 in/lbs in quality rings from before they put out the 15 in/lbs notice... and they still work fine. They certainly don't recommend it. Especially with faulty rings. (and there are more faulty rings out there than anyone wants to admit)

As per usual in these types of situations, I won't say which ones to avoid, but I'll say that I use Hawkins rings on everything these days, and in most applications I'll opt for the 6-screw "extreme" models. It's worth the extra couple ounces. Obviously those are unavailable for the 30mm tubes, and generally speaking I'll run the 5-25 or 7-35 for big game hunting on a magnum anyway. Yet, I've been running the hawkins lightweight alloy 30mm sets for a lot of years now and haven't had a 315M move yet when run at 15 in/lbs.

However it's important to note that I don't make a habit of carrying around 7lb 300 Ultra Mag rifles either. My hunting rifles weigh on average 11-14lbs. Were I in that situation, I'd buy a second set of rings and run a 3rd or 4th (if room) ring on there. From my experience, if the recoil is high enough, and the rifle light enough, there's not 4-screw top ring made that will hold a scope with just 2 of them. Not unless you legitimately epoxy the tube to the bottom ring half. So doubling up, is the best way to handle extreme situations. I recall nightforce making a set that has 8 screws, or basically 2 rings, joined up at the front. I think I recall badger doing one like that as well. So in the heaviest recoil situations, I'd be taking drastic measures. A guy that only shoots it 10 times a year could probably just run a normal setup... but if you expect the scope to stay put with repeated use with that kind of recoil, it MUST be mounted firmly.

Regarding the Tangent Theta scopes themselves, they are at the tip of the pyramid in every respect. There is nothing better out there at this time. We keep them in stock always.


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Per your discussion of using 3 or 4 scope rings to keep a scope from moving.

Why are scope tubes and rings smooth? Why aren't the finishes rough or tiny ridges added to both the scope tube and rings? Design the scope tube & rings so that the ring ridges align with the scope tube ridges like a picatinny mount interfaces with rings. This would probably solve scopes moving in the rings. Maybe a hatched design to control movement fore/aft and also twisting.

 

[orkan]

Per your discussion of using 3 or 4 scope rings to keep a scope from moving.

Why are scope tubes and rings smooth? Why aren't the finishes rough or tiny ridges added to both the scope tube and rings? Design the scope tube & rings so that the ring ridges align with the scope tube ridges like a picatinny mount interfaces with rings. This would probably solve scopes moving in the rings. Maybe a hatched design to control movement fore/aft and also twisting.

That's been done, and it's actually worse. (depending on which method we're discussing)

However, the main reason is compatibility. It isn't as if companies haven't done this. There are swaro setups and various others that are designed to hook directly to several actions out there. It's mainly seen in euro setups.

Americans want options, even if they are all worse options... that's what we want. Lots of people patently REFUSE to spend the kind of money to get what I would set them up with which wouldn't have ANY of the problems mentioned in this thread.

So the right stuff that doesn't have problems, is out there already. People are just stupid. So they take a $500 scope in a set of $50 rings, and put it on a 300 ultra mag... and then complain about gutting it.


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[Wedgy]

Per your discussion of using 3 or 4 scope rings to keep a scope from moving.

Why are scope tubes and rings smooth? Why aren't the finishes rough or tiny ridges added to both the scope tube and rings? Design the scope tube & rings so that the ring ridges align with the scope tube ridges like a picatinny mount interfaces with rings. This would probably solve scopes moving in the rings. Maybe a hatched design to control movement fore/aft and also twisting.

I buy an extra set of whatever rings I'm using and add a 3rd one on my magnums, or go with a base like a Spuhr and they are all bedded. If you check rings with a lapping bar you can see if there is even contact and correct it if necessary. I have seen a lot of people install top rings and torque each screw straight to 25 inch pounds, which isn't the way to do it. Start at say ~10 inch pounds, then 15, 20, and 25 like torquing down a cylinder head to get evenly distributed pressure. I have seen too many scopes move and prefer to eliminate that variable from my system.... so I can chase my tail somewhere else.

 

[Bob Wright]

You didn't tell us math was on the quiz......my brain aches, I quit

I'm sorry, but it wasn't a pop quiz on a Friday before school let's out. I hated those.

 

[willfrye027]

Quick trig work shows a .008° angle shift at 100 yards = .5" at 100 yards.
To accomplish that .008° shift at the scope, rings, bases or pic rail, the shift needs to be .0007" over 5" of the attachment points- anywhere. That does not include the scope internals getting jarred.
Dropping something onto a hard surface is the same as hitting it with a hammer (controlled).
So if there is .0007 clearance in screws/holes (there is) or pic rail to ring mounting (there is) or rings to scope tube (usually is) and scope cap screws (there is), that is a lot of opportunity to move something attaching the scope to receiver. The internals of the scope moving adds to that shift.
Food for thought.

Yep, it's not just the scopes the whole system needs to be solid. That's the beauty of dropping the setup. If you have something rock solid like a nightforce, you can "proof" everything from your action screw torque, bedding job, rail, rings. All of these can cause issues for sure. Dropping stuff in the off-season is good peace of mind on the hunt

 

[Paladin300]

Rant, forthcoming! OK, boys, men, ladies and gentlemen, let me explain something as simple as I can for those who don't understand. Most of your POI shifts have nothing to do with the scopes. It has everything to do with you. if you have poor form and don't line up behind a scope, exactly the same, get too far up in it, get too far out, to far left or right of the eye box, you're cheek welds not to same, or you don't shoulder that rifle the same, you cant the rifle, squeeze or grip the rifle differently, put your figure on the trigger differently, any of those things that you do can change your POI from one range session to the next. Every input you put into that weapon affects where that bullet is going to land. Your breathing, did drink a Red Bull, nerves etc. If you have poor form or technique and all of those things are different at every session your going to have a shift in POI, at 600 it will be a miss. You could own a $10000 piece of kit and it wouldn't help you. It ain't the scope. It is you! You can't shoot for beans. It does not take much to hit stuff on a single outing but to do repeatedly takes consistently good form. You have to do it the same every time. Just a slight right/left cant can cause a shot to be off a 1/2 inch which could translate into a miss further down range. I can't tell you how many guys show up at camp with a brand new Uber magnum $3000 scope $5000 rifle go out and miss a moose at 100 yards and blame it on the rifle because they shot it five times before they showed up at Camp, had somebody else sight it in and then thought they were gonna get it done, piece of cake, horse ****! They shoot and missed and then say "There must be something wrong with it." It ain't the gun! I was recently out in the mountains hiking and jumped down off a ledge I thought was about 3ft, it was 5ft. Slipped and fell and hit the back of my head. It wasn't a hard fall, no equipment damage, no broken bones but it disoriented me for a moment. You take a tumble like that and have to try and make a shot, even with good form, it could be difficult. 90% of misses and I would say shifting zeroes aren't equipment related! Rant over…

 

[sp6x6]

A friend asked if I wanted to shoot his bench rifle,1000 set up fire form at 300.6Dasher, told me light trigger.I didn't even get my eye in scope and shot 3/4 sticky dot with the 42x or whatever NF it was.Maybe it IS the gear?

 

[willfrye027]

Rant, forthcoming! OK, boys, men, ladies and gentlemen, let me explain something as simple as I can for those who don't understand. Most of your POI shifts have nothing to do with the scopes. It has everything to do with you. if you have poor form and don't line up behind a scope, exactly the same, get too far up in it, get too far out, to far left or right of the eye box, you're cheek welds not to same, or you don't shoulder that rifle the same, you cant the rifle, squeeze or grip the rifle differently, put your figure on the trigger differently, any of those things that you do can change your POI from one range session to the next. Every input you put into that weapon affects where that bullet is going to land. Your breathing, did drink a Red Bull, nerves etc. If you have poor form or technique and all of those things are different at every session your going to have a shift in POI, at 600 it will be a miss. You could own a $10000 piece of kit and it wouldn't help you. It ain't the scope. It is you! You can't shoot for beans. It does not take much to hit stuff on a single outing but to do repeatedly takes consistently good form. You have to do it the same every time. Just a slight right/left cant can cause a shot to be off a 1/2 inch which could translate into a miss further down range. I can't tell you how many guys show up at camp with a brand new Uber magnum $3000 scope $5000 rifle go out and miss a moose at 100 yards and blame it on the rifle because they shot it five times before they showed up at Camp, had somebody else sight it in and then thought they were gonna get it done, piece of cake, horse ****! They shoot and missed and then say "There must be wrong with it." It ain't the gun! I was recently out in the mountains hiking and jumped down off a ledge I thought was about 3ft, it was 5ft. Slipped and fell and hit the back of my head. It wasn't a hard fall, no equipment damage, no broken bones but it disoriented me for a moment. You take a tumble like that and have to try and make a shot, even with good form, it could be difficult. 90% of misses and I would say shifting zeroes aren't equipment related! Rant over…

If you shoot a good 10-20 shot zero, and don't flinch behind the trigger it's not that hard to establish a good zero. When your gun shoots 2-3" off that…pretty easy to tell when there is a substantial zero shift.

 

[Hotmail]

I buy an extra set of whatever rings I'm using and add a 3rd one on my magnums, or go with a base like a Spuhr and they are all bedded. If you check rings with a lapping bar you can see if there is even contact and correct it if necessary. I have seen a lot of people install top rings and torque each screw straight to 25 inch pounds, which isn't the way to do it. Start at say ~10 inch pounds, then 15, 20, and 25 like torquing down a cylinder head to get evenly distributed pressure. I have seen too many scopes move and prefer to eliminate that variable from my system.... so I can chase my tail somewhere else.View attachment 522014

I personally never had any movement whatsoever when using Burris Signature rings with the posalign inserts nor with Burris Signature XTR rings with the included shim inserts ever including on a 50 BMG. I would think the scope would break before it would ever creep which I highly doubt because never had a single issue of creep using only Burris Signature rings and Burris Signature XTR rings, ever. If someday I ever experienced scope creep at least all of these Signature rings and their inserts have a forever no questions asked lifetime warranty.

 

[orkan]

I personally never had any movement whatsoever when using Burris Signature rings with the posalign inserts nor with Burris Signature XTR rings with the included shim inserts ever including on a 50 BMG. I would think the scope would break before it would ever creep which I highly doubt because never had a single issue of creep using only Burris Signature rings and Burris Signature XTR rings, ever. If someday I ever experienced scope creep at least all of these Signature rings and their inserts have a forever no questions asked lifetime warranty.

Aaaah yes, The magical burris insert rings.

Now this thread is really starting to warm up! We've got burris rings and 50BMG's getting in the mix!

Boy I wish I could have that segment of my life back from when I was conned into using these stupid things by forums just like this over 20 years ago. lol

I did some dumb things in my shooting career... but one of the dumbest was using these rings. Almost as dumb as listening to advice like that from the internet in the first place. Right up there with the savage rifle recommendations and bore cleaning techniques from guys that haven't shot out a barrel on any rifle they've owned in 50 years!




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[nksmfamjp]

You have to consider the normal load dispersion and the sample size. If I shoot ten rounds and the dispersion is 1 moa and you fire one round to check the zero what does that tell you? You may shoot another one and maybe it's outside of 1 moa.

Seriously! WTH is a 3rd zero telling me? More than 1, I guess! I like to shoot 20ish and make my move.