Scope field evaluations on rokslide

[Paladin300]

If you shoot a good 10-20 shot zero, and don't flinch behind the trigger it's not that hard to establish a good zero. When your gun shoots 2-3" off that…pretty easy to tell when there is a substantial zero shift.

You can shoot a 100 shot zero at a session come out the next time and change your grip, shooting position and cheek placement and I'll guarantee you that dude will shift three inches. I have a friend with which I shoot quit often. When he shoots my rifle he shoots an inch and a half to the right. You know why. He lines up differently behind the scope and he grips the palm swell. It torques the rifle and his eye shifts in the eye box. Happens every time! I sight his rifles and we always have to make adjustments. If he didn't shoot so well it be frustrating as hell, but he's consistent. If he canted the rifle based on what I see he would be out about three inches. If you are having to adjust your scope back and forth from one range session to the next I'll just about guarantee you it's a form issue.

 

[willfrye027]

You can shoot a 100 shot zero at a session come out the next time and change your grip, shooting position and cheek placement and I'll guarantee you that dude will shift three inches. I have a friend with which I shoot quit often. When he shoots my rifle he shoots an inch and a half to the right. You know why. He lines up differently behind the scope and he grips the palm swell. It torques the rifle and his eye shifts in the eye box. Happens every time! I sight his rifles and we always have to make adjustments. If he didn't shoot so well it be frustrating as hell, but he's consistent. If he canted the rifle based on what I see he would be out about three inches. If you are having to adjust your scope back and forth from one range session to the next I'll just about guarantee you it's a form issue.

Can't say I've ever seen anything like that. But I definitely have not seen it all .1Mil or so…yes. If a guy is struggling that much to hit where he's aiming at 100 yards off a bench, I guess there's more to worry about then the scope shifting zero.

 

[willfrye027]

Here's a recent example. Buddy's leupold VX whatever, 3-9 on a 30-06. I made some handloads for him that seemed to shoot well. A week before his hunting trip, "checking zero" the group looks like this:

I retorqued everything and loctited from action screws on up.

Convinced him to buy a trijicon 3-9, mounted, boresight one shot measured and adjusted. There's 7 shots in there.

Wasn't the shooter.

 

[Paladin300]

Here's a recent example. Buddy's leupold VX whatever, 3-9 on a 30-06. I made some handloads for him that seemed to shoot well. A week before his hunting trip, "checking zero" the group looks like this:

View attachment 522214

I retorqued everything and loctited from action screws on up.

View attachment 522215

Convinced him to buy a trijicon 3-9, mounted, boresight one shot measured and adjusted. There's 7 shots in there.

Wasn't the shooter.


View attachment 522216

I don't know what that is. Shots are all over the place. I have never seen that except on a rifle with either a barrel contact issue or a loose mounting rail. Here is a group from one of my 308s with a VX-R 3-9x40 on it. Been on the gun 5-6 years. Gun has several hundred rounds through it. We shoot a thousand with it. Cold bore shot a 750 yard elk silhouette with a swinging heart on our last outing. This group is a typical group. We were doing some load development. No zero shift here. The low right shot was the cold bore, which is another issue. The five in the center were the next five.

I am not arguing lost zero's don't happen or that scopes don't break. Or for that matter, that brand x is not better than brand y. I just think it is less scope related and more ammo, form or mount related and could often times be all three. I am basing this on 40 years shooting experience both as a professional shooter and a hunter. I just see a lot of mistakes guys make and even myself from time to time and they are more shooter related than equipment. JMTs

 

[Hotmail]

Aaaah yes, The magical burris insert rings.

Now this thread is really starting to warm up! We've got burris rings and 50BMG's getting in the mix!

Boy I wish I could have that segment of my life back from when I was conned into using these stupid things by forums just like this over 20 years ago. lol

I did some dumb things in my shooting career... but one of the dumbest was using these rings. Almost as dumb as listening to advice like that from the internet in the first place. Right up there with the savage rifle recommendations and bore cleaning techniques from guys that haven't shot out a barrel on any rifle they've owned in 50 years!




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Just stating my own first hand experience using them for nearly 2 decades. Maybe you didn't use them properly I assume? MOA inserts too fiddly for you to get your optical zero? It takes some patience and trial and error to set them perfect for optical zero onto the guns I will admit. I just recently ordered a hell of a lot more of the Burris XTR Signature rings to replace all the other brands of rings I have so I can optically center all of the scopes they have mounted to them for the best possible image quality.

 

[orkan]

Just stating my own first hand experience using them for nearly 2 decades. Maybe you didn't use them properly I assume? MOA inserts too fiddly for you to get your optical zero? It takes some patience and trial and error to set them perfect for optical zero onto the guns I will admit. I just recently ordered a hell of a lot more of the Burris XTR Signature rings to replace all the other brands of rings I have so I can optically center all of the scopes they have mounted to them for the best possible image quality.

Oh my, this is just wonderful. I have so much nostalgia from this post. I think I read this same post in 2002. Almost as much nostalgia as I'd get from grabbing onto an original AIAW. lol

 

[4th_point]

I personally never had any movement whatsoever when using Burris Signature rings with the posalign inserts nor with Burris Signature XTR rings with the included shim inserts ever including on a 50 BMG. I would think the scope would break before it would ever creep which I highly doubt because never had a single issue of creep using only Burris Signature rings and Burris Signature XTR rings, ever. If someday I ever experienced scope creep at least all of these Signature rings and their inserts have a forever no questions asked lifetime warranty.

By scope creep, do you mean the tube slipping and moving relative to the ring?

I have used Signature and Signature XTR rings a quite a bit with no issues too. But I have not had them in super cold temperatures. That's my only concern, but it might be unfounded.

I have used them on fairly hard recoiling rifles too. Along with some pretty severe drops/impacts.

I agree that there is value in getting optical center established but I use the inserts on rifles that I don't want an inclined rail on, or to correct for geometry issues on an action.

I think the past half dozen 700 rifles have had the over polished starboard side bridge. That puts the scope pointing high and left at a minimum or in a bind, unless corrected.

May not be for everyone, but I have no issues with them. The 34mm were made in the US, at least the last one that I bought.

 

[willfrye027]

I don't know what that is. Shots are all over the place. I have never seen that except on a rifle with either a barrel contact issue or a loose mounting rail. Here is a group from one of my 308s with a VX-R 3-9x40 on it. Been on the gun 5-6 years. Gun has several hundred rounds through it. We shoot a thousand with it. Cold bore shot a 750 yard elk silhouette with a swinging heart on our last outing. This group is a typical group. We were doing some load development. No zero shift here. The low right shot was the cold bore, which is another issue. The five in the center were the next five.

I am not arguing lost zero's don't happen or that scopes don't break. Or for that matter, that brand x is not better than brand y. I just think it is less scope related and more ammo, form or mount related and could often times be all three. I am basing this on 40 years shooting experience both as a professional shooter and a hunter. I just see a lot of mistakes guys make and even myself from time to time and they are more shooter related than equipment. JMTs

View attachment 522223

The only thing changed between those groups was the scope. It worked until it didn't, for no apparent reason.

That's basically the point of the drop evals. You can accelerate the failure so it doesn't happen the week before or during the hunt.

Not discounting your many years of experience whatsoever. The drop tests may be overkill for most uses. But they have been very valuable for myself and do have merit.

 

[koja]

Just stating my own first hand experience using them for nearly 2 decades. Maybe you didn't use them properly I assume? MOA inserts too fiddly for you to get your optical zero? It takes some patience and trial and error to set them perfect for optical zero onto the guns I will admit. I just recently ordered a hell of a lot more of the Burris XTR Signature rings to replace all the other brands of rings I have so I can optically center all of the scopes they have mounted to them for the best possible image quality.

Burris rings are not hyme joints.To do them correctly, use a dail indicator on front cap.A 5+ in rear and 10- in front will give you about 1/2 the el your after,if that. You will get a 10-11 thou bend in scope,this B14r would shoot .2's @ 50m then 2" @ 100. After adding an .011 shim under base of front ring, .8 avg @100m. First pic is after zeroing indicator on cap before loosening clamp,2nd pic is after loosening front clamp,.010 feeler flops around.

 

[Rosebud]

Rant, forthcoming! OK, boys, men, ladies and gentlemen, let me explain something as simple as I can for those who don't understand. Most of your POI shifts have nothing to do with the scopes. It has everything to do with you. if you have poor form and don't line up behind a scope, exactly the same, get too far up in it, get too far out, to far left or right of the eye box, you're cheek welds not to same, or you don't shoulder that rifle the same, you cant the rifle, squeeze or grip the rifle differently, put your figure on the trigger differently, any of those things that you do can change your POI from one range session to the next. Every input you put into that weapon affects where that bullet is going to land. Your breathing, did drink a Red Bull, nerves etc. If you have poor form or technique and all of those things are different at every session your going to have a shift in POI, at 600 it will be a miss. You could own a $10000 piece of kit and it wouldn't help you. It ain't the scope. It is you! You can't shoot for beans. It does not take much to hit stuff on a single outing but to do repeatedly takes consistently good form. You have to do it the same every time. Just a slight right/left cant can cause a shot to be off a 1/2 inch which could translate into a miss further down range. I can't tell you how many guys show up at camp with a brand new Uber magnum $3000 scope $5000 rifle go out and miss a moose at 100 yards and blame it on the rifle because they shot it five times before they showed up at Camp, had somebody else sight it in and then thought they were gonna get it done, piece of cake, horse ****! They shoot and missed and then say "There must be something wrong with it." It ain't the gun! I was recently out in the mountains hiking and jumped down off a ledge I thought was about 3ft, it was 5ft. Slipped and fell and hit the back of my head. It wasn't a hard fall, no equipment damage, no broken bones but it disoriented me for a moment. You take a tumble like that and have to try and make a shot, even with good form, it could be difficult. 90% of misses and I would say shifting zeroes aren't equipment related! Rant over…

Good rant !

 

[Paladin300]

The only thing changed between those groups was the scope. It worked until it didn't, for no apparent reason.

That's basically the point of the drop evals. You can accelerate the failure so it doesn't happen the week before or during the hunt.

Not discounting your many years of experience whatsoever. The drop tests may be overkill for most uses. But they have been very valuable for myself and do have merit.

Did you use a different set of rings or change the base? I have seen a Pentax do that but it had a broken windage adjustment. Scope had thousands of rounds through it. Any scope can break under the right circumstances. There are just so many variables that come into play. Certainly some scopes are better than others. Certain models from one brand can be worse than others because of the materials used, say brass verses stainless steal, aluminum verses steel, polymers verses glass, all various materials used at various price points. Tube diameter is another issue. The larger the tube the more complex the internals become, the greater chance for a failure. There is a reason 30 and 34 have become the standard. The more compact the more complex, in regards to length. For every innovation you introduce a new complexity. In theory, the shorter, lighter and larger the tube diameter the greater chance for failure. Add in cheap materials and the best laid plans of mice and men will fail. I think the test have merit, however there are flaws which have been pointed out. Interestingly every scope that passed with flying colors are long, 34 mm tubes or smaller with steel components and glass lenses an etched reticles, there in may lay your answer. All of them are fairly heavy. If you want to go lite and durable without compromising some reliability you are going to have to give up a little adjustment, light transmission and image quality most likely. When talking long range hunting that doesn't translate into a good thing. PRS is a brutal test of a shooter's equipment, nothing on earth not even military applications pushes the limits of reliability like the sport of PRS does. Those rifles are banged around from stag to stag every weekend for months and see thousands of rounds a year. Most hunting rifle never see a thousand rounds. A good measure of scope durability wound be to see which ones professional PRS shooters use. However, chances are you aren't going to like the weight of those scopes for a hunting rig anymore than the rifles. Lugging a fifteen to twenty pound rifle around the mountains is not fun for most people. That said, a 5-6 lbs rifle is less than most shooters can handle accurately under stress. The balance lies somewhere in the middle. I use one set of criteria for my competition setup and another for my hunting rifles, though there is cross over, each platform is mission specific. I buy the best equipment I can afford for the task at hand. If you told me you were going to hunt elk and wanted a light weight reliable scope around a $1000, I would most likely put you in a VX5 or LHT and not think twice. If you told me you could afford to spend twice that it might be an NX8. If there were no budget and you were willing to spend 3K it would be a Schmidt. Less than $500 probably a used older Luepold. Again, we're talking LRH scopes not PRS or Tactical scopes which most of the scopes that passed represent. JMO&Ts

 

[Paladin300]

This group is from a light weight hunting set up with a 16 inch barrel. Rifle weighs just under 8 lbs. I want to use it to show a cold barrel versus a hot one. These shots were all fired in succession over about 2-3 minutes from a cold barrel start. They were the first shots of the day. The square is a one inch square with a 1/2 center. The cold bore shot is low right. The second shot is high left. The next four are together in the center. As the barrel heated the POI shifted ever so slightly until it settled. Happens every time with a lite weight barrel. This is not a scope issue. Again add in all the other dynamics and you could see how an inexperienced shooter or one with poor technique could see a fairly large shift in POI from one range session to the next. If they change scopes and their groups tighten up somewhat? Does the scope add weight? Weight to some degree translates into accuracy. By the way this was a rifle and scope combination another shooter said he couldn't get to hold a 2" group. Just another point to be made.

 

[Darryle]

50BMG's getting in the mix!
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About 25ish years ago I bought a Grizzly 50 BMG single shot. It was in the classifieds in a local paper. I saw it for a few days and wondered why it was still available. After a few more days I called the number and the guy says "I'll make you a deal if you come get it right now!" So my ignorant *** did. I got the rifle, Leupold Vari-X III 4.5 - 14 x 50mm, a ammo can with about 25rds of loaded ammo, about 25 pieces of once fired brass and one of those big thick PAST pads, all for the low price of $3000. IIRC, that was what the rifle sold for new. Well, I called my cousin to meet me at our private range on the family farm. We had constructed a backstop out of stacked railroad ties and backfilled with dirt. We sat up the rifle verified boresite and I touched off the first round without the PAST pad. I think that was when I lost shook the first of my marbles loose, I decided to try another one and I think they fell completely out. To say I was seriously reconsidering my purchase was an understatement. My cousin declared I was a sissy, let me show you how a real man shoots a rifle, he made it to 3 and decided the rifle was possessed. We went to look at the target with a 5 shot group about the size of a basketball, maybe bigger. The next outing was using the pad and I might have used a couple of pot holders too. I had a better recoil pad installed, no dice, added weights, no dice, that rifle was the demon spawn of Satan himself. That or I am a ************, probably the latter.

Let's just say, I tried to sell that rifle after cleaning it. No range would allow it to be shot with the FMJ rounds I had, so no one wanted it without being able to shoot it. I don't recall what was available at the time, but I think Hornady may have offered a 750gr A-Tip, but I do remember it was expensive and I wasn't buying it just so I could sell the rifle. That rifle sat in a case under my bed for a few years, I would take it out, think about shooting it, clean it, oil it and put it right back in the case. Fast forward a few more years, now married and the rifle is still under the bed in the case but without the scope. At the wife's office Christmas party, I hear her boss talking about this big cartridge he had, talked about going on a safari and all the replica mounts he's having made. He asks the people standing around, all truck drivers or mechanics that worked for him what was the biggest rifle they had, when I told him I had a 50 BMG in a case under our bed, we became friends. He wanted to shoot it and I said well it's for sale. He gave me what I originally paid for the package for the bare rifle, remaining ammo and brass and the case.

No long after that, my wife quit because of how bad things got around the office. I am pretty sure that rifle was the cause of the strife.

That is not the first stupid thing I have done and it's sure as hell won't be the last, I am a hold my beer Sprite Zero kinda guy.

 

[Paladin300]

Here's a recent example. Buddy's leupold VX whatever, 3-9 on a 30-06. I made some handloads for him that seemed to shoot well. A week before his hunting trip, "checking zero" the group looks like this:

View attachment 522214

I retorqued everything and loctited from action screws on up.

View attachment 522215

Convinced him to buy a trijicon 3-9, mounted, boresight one shot measured and adjusted. There's 7 shots in there.

Wasn't the shooter.


View attachment 522216

After looking closely at your photos, I had not paid attention to the shot number placement when I responded earlier. If you will notice the shots are grouped well enough. Once everything was tightened the group did shrink but I don't think that is the issue. I think this rifle was being canted left to right trying to get it to group in the center. The shot was being forced and the trigger slapped in frustration. Shot 1&4 are in the same hole as in the last photo. Shots 2,3,5 are right of center. The remaining shot are left but still a group. I think he was picking his head up and readjusting every two or three shots. The last photo give us no order of shots fired nor the conditions under which they were fired. The first and second photo show us identical results. It would be uncanny for a scope to start center move all the way to the right and then go back to the left and stay. If it were moving on every shot and not staying zeroed because of a scope issue or a mounting issue the shots would be inconsistent without showing a measure of grouping. The same would be true if he were gripping the forend in the first two photos and shooting freebore in the last. If it were a contact issue it would be random as well. I think these photos show a shooter error more than a scope not holding zero. The photos show a measure of consistency and an identical pattern even though the scope was adjusted and re-zeroed. Not something you would necessarily see in a mechanical failure. It would be more random and inconsistent in nature. Just my thought and analysis. I could be completely wrong because I wasn't there but it is what I see in the groupings.