Savage B.Mag 17 Winchester Super Mag Teardown

[Rainorshine]

Marlin,

On the forum at rimfirecentral.com there is some feedback in many of the WSM threads under the "other rimfire guns section", paricularly the "poll: 1.5 inch groups..." thread. My interpretation is that the results are mixed. Some have reorted getting back a rifle that groups abot an inch at 100 yds while others have not been so lucky. I'm stll waiting to get my rifle returned to me after sending it back to Savage about five weeks ago. I did call them after four weeks and the CSR stated it was being replaced with a new rifle.

 

[Rotts]

Well, Savage had my b-mag for 6 weeks so I called them today. It had terrible accuracy, split cases and the stock was not free floating. They said they were going to replace it with one that the engineers checked first. I asked if I could have the bull barrel model instead, and got it for $50 more. Hope this one works.

 

[marlin4570]

Thanks for the info. Have not had response from Savage on my email;may require a phone call.I hate to send it back if they can"t give me an answer on what the problem is.Will keep you posted.

 

[tuck2]

I m an old timer, got my first rifle in 1952. Over the years I would look at, talk to people, and read about their Savage rim and center fire bolt action rifles. In recent years the reports that the quality and accuracy of the Savage rifles are greatly improved were common . I think that I was lucky that the new B Mag action rifle was not available for me to get in the area I live . After reading ( B Mag Teardown) I knew I did not wont a rifle with a action that was so different than the proven Savage rim and center fire bolt actions. After reading about the Winchester 17 Super Mag rim fire cartridge I started looking for a rifle chambered for it. I do not wont to spend $ 1300 for the Winchester single shot rifle. I have read about various problems and some good comments by persons who have the B mag rifle that cost $ 300 and or $400 . I still wont a rifle chambered for the 17 WSM round and am willing to spend more than $400 to get one that is problem free .

 

[oregonreloader]

Tuck2,

Good luck finding such a rifle. I, too, had a Savage rimfire when I was young, and I was quite pleased with it. When I joined the Navy, it disappeared.

In my opinion, Savage has done a lot of harm to their brand by offering--no, foisting--the B.MAG on a trusting public. Their campaign to sell B.MAGs was boosted by gun magazine writers that provided glowing reviews of it's performance. If they really achieved the accuracy they claimed for the B.MAG, it was a custom shop-selected rifle that was the exception, rather than the rule.

But then again, if you write for a gun magazine to put food on your table, you can't be too critical of the things you write about lest the rice bowl get taken away.

The best thing Savage could do, in my opinion, is recall each and every B.MAG and refund the price to the owners.

Having invested so much time and effort in the B.MAG, I'm giving it one more chance to prove to me that it is capable of shooting good groups, by replacing me behind the trigger with a friend who is an accuracy shooter. I'm waiting for good weather and my friend.

If it shoots good groups for him, then we'll know it's me, not the rifle and I may keep working at it. If it's not me, then it's going into the local newspaper for someone else to struggle with. But, as an honest person, how can I conceivably palm off an inferior product to a trusting and unsuspecting buyer? I may be stuck with it.

 

[Rainorshine]

Lacking any friends that could shoot any better tha me I convinced myself it was the rifle by alternating between the B Mag and my T-Bolt in .17 HMR. Same temp., same wind, same rest etc. Groups with T-Bolt about 1" at 100 yds. while B Mag shot 6" and a few 8" groups.

One positive to come out of this struggle with the B Mag was that in an effort to try to get it to shoot better I discovered these forums where at least I was able to read some experiences from other owners -"not gun writers". I have yet to read any article from a gun writer mentioning any problems with the B Mag. Maybe there are some such articles but I haven't seen them.

After first reading the articles about the B Mag and the .17 HSM I couldn't wait to get one. My rifle is back to savage and I can't find any more ammo to buy. I hope Savage/Winchester ultimately gets it right. I'll check this forum before I buy another newly introduced product from either company.

 

[17Fireball]

No feedback on the bull barrel anyone?

 

[HntWhtTail]

I am in my final revision on the B mag, Today I picked up a stainless bull barrel I looked at 4 before finding one with bases that are true to the action. and cleaned out the boyds to fit the bigger barrel its all mounted up and ready to go to the range will report back with the results after barrel break in etc. on a side note if anyone has a original untouched stock for the thin barrel they want to sell please message me.

 

[oregonreloader]

For me, I think the B.MAG issue is resolved. On 5/11 I went to the range with my accuracy-shooter friend. He and I shot at six different targets at 100-yards. I also had my Marlin 17HMR and we tried that, too. Over the course of the shooting session, we shot 28 rounds of the 25gn B.MAG ammo. What we learned was very interesting.

First, I was able to shoot groups typically about 1½"x2¼". My friend shot groups of about 1¾"x2½". Since he was totally unfamiliar with the B.MAG, I attributed his poorer groups to the fact that trigger feels was much different than his double-set trigger rifles he was used to. The conclusion I reached was, based on 18 shots fired by me and 10 fired by him, it is the B.MAG, not me that is limiting the accuracy. Both of us experienced some failures-to-extract

The photo below shows a 8-shot sequence; I shot that seemed to be fairly representative of the day for me. Notice that there are 4 bullets in the bullseye and 4 flyers. That seems to be what I've come to expect: some close, some wild, with no apparent cause.

We recovered all 28 spent cases. As we were picking them up, my fiend noticed that some had split cases. We looked at all the cases and discovered 10 split cases. The photo below shows the worst of the 10 cases that were split.

Now looking more critically at the targets we shot, of the 28 rounds fired, 10 were flyers. Ten flyers and 10 split cases? A coincidence? I don't know but I suspect a positive correlation between the case condition and the flyers.

I sent a lengthy photo-containing email to Savage. I their reply, they suggested I check the unfired ammo. I had 38 unfired rounds in one box that I examined carefully. One of the cases of the 38 was badly split at the neck, as shown in the photo below.

One or two other cartridges did show evidence of case splits--very fine cracks, difficult to see without using a hand magnifier.

But a large number of cartridge cases showed stress marks or 'incipient cracks' in the shoulder region. These were fine, tiny little linear lines that paralleled the length of the case. Too small to be easily photographed. These tiny 'cracks-ready-to-happen', in an imperfect chamber or with imperfect headspacing, will allow the case to split on ignition, thus causing the bullet to launch out-of-true with the bore resulting (possibly) in a flyer, and (possibly) a failure-to-extract.

If I were to pursue this, which I may not, would be to inspect each and every cartridge before firing and cherry-pick only the flawed free cartridges. Then, the accuracy tests might lend further light on the true accuracy of the B.MAG. I encourage each of you to carefully inspect the cases and use only the ones that are free of flaws.

Whether it's the B.MAG or the ammo, the net result is the same: the B.MAG cannot be depended upon to shoot good groups.

 

[HntWhtTail]

Well bull barrel is not a magical cure for accuracy, at least not yet I just wrote a big post and accidentally closed the window..any way I am getting consistent groups around an inch with random flyers. flyers seem to be tied to split cases about 70% of the time best group after 50 rounds best group was 3 shots within .5 inches and 2 left .5 measured just under an inch this was at 100 yards with gusty winds maybe 15 mph. most groups are 1 inch to 1.5 but they look like groups not shotgun splatter. Lost the target between the range and the house. I am bedding the recoil lug and first inch or so of the barrel might make it back to the range tonight if it sets up. picture of new set up to keep you interested

 

[Rotts]

More on my b-mag saga. First purchased on 1/17, returned the stock without shooting as it was not free floating. Got second stock with same problem. Shot it and got best group of 4 inches @ 50 yds and split cases. Returned it to Savage and was told 6 weeks turn around. Called them 8 weeks later, and was told that they would replace it. I opted for heavy barrel(+$50) and was told 2 weeks turn around. Now three weeks later and just got off the phone with Savage. They say another 2 weeks before it's shipped. 4 months and still counting.

 

[oregonreloader]

Gents,

This thread now has 32 pages of posts that describe our woes, issues and minor claims of potential success (that never seem to come to fruition). We continue to be hopeful and look for ways to float the barrel, put vibration dampeners on the barrel, get more rigid bull barrels, and so on. But no one, as far as I can tell, has found the magic elixir that allows the B.MAG to shoot accurately, dependably and repeatedly.

I haven't tried to tabulate the number of yeah-sayers here--those among us who are entirely happy with the performance of their B.MAG--but my gut recollection suggests that the number of 'unhappy' shooters far outweighs the number of those 'happy' with the B.MAG.

I've spent a LOT of time since last September, going through several B.MAGs and hundreds of dollars worth of both 20gn and 25gn ammo. My last outing, reported in brief three posts up, suggests what might be the predominant and real cause for our problems: the ammunition.

Go back and look at my earlier post and click on the pictures so you can study the enlarged photos carefully. Then go look at your ammunition. And look at it very carefully, one by one, with a powerful hand magnifier. Never mind weighing each cartridge or polishing each one, or other useless tasks. Just look for defects in the cartridge case.

Look for obvious tears in the neck, just as shown above. Look for minute case cracks. And look all round the shoulder of the unfired cases for tiny--almost imperceptible--longitudinal lines that suggest metal fatigue. These are incipient case splits, failures to extract, and possibly, indications of pending poor accuracy.

If you find unfired rounds with any of these conditions, separate them (by symptom) from the other unfired rounds that do not show any problems. Then shoot them separately (by symptom) and record your observations for the separate symptoms and their groupings, comparing the symptom with the results you obtain with unblemished rounds. Then report the results here.

I have concluded that it is pointless to continue to hammer at the B.MAG itself, without considering the ammunition that we feed it and how that is affecting the performance we see. My experience is that the folks at Savage are good people and they are really trying to help us. But, it very well may be that it is the ammunition that is causing the problems we all complain about. And maybe--because of the Savage-Winchester partnership in the .17WSM venture--Savage just cannot publicly point their fingers at Winchester.

But if finger-pointing is justified, we can do that.

Dennis

 

[Rotts]

If it was just the ammo causing problems, why is Savage replacing my original b-mag because it was defective? Savage holds some of the blame.

 

[17Fireball]

Has anyone received a meaningful response from Winchester about the seemingly defective ammunition some of you have reported?