elkaholic
Well-Known Member
I would agree to start with clean and wet, and then move on to fouled and wet. I think that the duration of being wet might very well be significant too. i.e. wet for a week vs a day.......Rich
Rifles in the rain *important*
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Cold Trigger Finger
Well-Known Member
Intermediate to long range distances exacerbate problems that may never be seen at close range. I always have my muzzle taped with electrical tape or what ever tape is handy like duct tape, gorilla tape ect. It keeps stuff out of the barrel and provides some protection for the crown. But then I lived in and hunted in a rain forest for 3 decades. Old habits can be good habits. The air pressure ahead of the bullet as it moves toward the muzzle at speed , blows the tape off long before the bullet reaches the tape.
However if your chambering wet ammo that will change pressures in the chamber and throat when the rifle is fired. Then if you have a wood stock that will create tons of headaches that are easily solved by restocking with synthetic, laminate or aluminum stocks.
My guess is you had enough water in the bore to change all kinds of things.
However if your chambering wet ammo that will change pressures in the chamber and throat when the rifle is fired. Then if you have a wood stock that will create tons of headaches that are easily solved by restocking with synthetic, laminate or aluminum stocks.
My guess is you had enough water in the bore to change all kinds of things.
Ok, physics it is. When you lubricate the barrel, be it with an HBN coated bullet, oil, or water you will change the coefficient of friction. This affects the pressure curve of the burning powder, which profoundly affects the barrel exit time for that shot. Depending on where your 'reference' shot exits the muzzle vibration pattern, a lubricated shot may fall on the opposite side of maximum muzzle excursion. This amplifies the difference between the shots significantly.
There should be zero condensation in your barrel if you don't allow your rifle to warm up. Once it gets to ambient outdoor temp, don't bring it into a warm tent or cabin. The humidity in the bore should be the same as ambient. Unburned smokeless powder is hydrophobic, and many reference samples are stored underwater to preserve them. Burned smokeless powder residue mixed with water however could become caustic. I recommend checking zero first day in camp, then taping the muzzle. Put several turns of tape around the barrel to be used to refresh the muzzle cover when you shoot. Clean the rifle, re-oil the barrel, and store normally. Clean lightly, range zero, tape and transport to the hunt.
You can safely cover your muzzle with electricians tape, or nearly any material. Do NOT put any kind of plug in the barrel. The air in front of the exiting bullet will blow a bore size hole in the tape well before the bullet arrives at the muzzle. Ther is no POI change for one layer of electricians tape over the bore, secured by a couple turns of tape around the barrel.
You could arrange a scope coat around the action if you think water will enter from that direction. Carrying muzzle down puts the action on the bottom, under your arm. With the bolt closed, your breach is nearly gas tight (only awaiting case expansion to fully seal it).
I think that if you tape the muzzle, and then the rifle is submerged, it is imparative to remove the tape, pour the water out, visually check that there are no water drops in the barrel, and re-tape. This is for accuracy's sake, as it is perfectly practical to submerge a rifle and immediately fire it as long as there is no barrel obstrucion. (Think SEALS), however ithe first few shots typically won't be terribly accurate.
If you want the very long explination of barrel vibration vs exit time see my page here
elkaholic
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the input. Some good reading!........Rich
Having shot over 100k in competition wet & dry and hunted in the Southern Alps of NZ, there are several points that need to be mentioned. Putting tape over the muzzle was adopted in WW-2 to keep mud and dirt out of MG barrels while taking off, nothing new. Here in NZ taping the muzzles is common and one of the biggest reasons I stay busy putting so many barrels on! Keep in mind that 100% humidity is rain and that is in effect the same as dipping the gun in a pool of water, UNLESS you have it in a gun case which was the old method before tape and it works quite well. The majority of this thread is about water in the barrel being the only issue, its not. Depending on how the rifle is bedded and in what in wood -fiberglass-carbon graphite a whole host of other issues come into play. I've seen old target rifles quit shooting when water gets in between the action and the stock same as oil, that small amount of slippage is a accuracy killer, dry it out , put it back together and its good to go. No one is mentioning the metals which the rifle is made , if its moly steel it should have had some rust preventive oil with the last patch. If its stainless steel the SAME ! While many think SS won't rust sorry but when combined with powder fouling and solvents I have had some real nasty pits in several guns which ruined their barrels. Carbon rings in barrel well known to me and many target shooters in particular with a certain powder made in Australia that made a ring of glazed carbon 1 inch down the throat, and nothing got that out. Keep in mind that even though you think you've gotten all the cleaning solvents out when that barrel is exposed to moisture the microscopic amounts left become reactive , I've seen 'stuff' grow in a barrel days after it was cleaned ! Firing with a wet chamber is very dangerous as the case is lubricated same as with oil and the water provides a non compress-able boundary between case and chamber wall which increases the thrust on the bolt locking surfaces and in worse case which I've witnessed allows gas to blow back into the shooters face , blow out and damage extractors and triggers. This was observed when shooting at Camp Perry at 600yds and it was a very light rain where we could not keep the ammo nor the rifle dry. In that experience POI was essentially unaffected, even though by scientific consideration the increased hydrogen from the H2O 'decreased' the normal density of the air which should have caused bullet strikes to be higher, who knows maybe the lower temperatures countered that with lower pressures made by the powder being at a lower temperature.
Now lets look at one other problem with tape on the muzzle what happens if you carry a muzzle down and water gets in the breech end of the barrel and you then fire it with water trapped between the bullet and the tape , that's no different than sticking a plug inside the barrel. And what about you guys that have tape on the muzzle and then go into a warm hut and moisture condenses in the barrel because its plugged on one end by the tape, if you have a plain steel barrel , you'll be my next customer .
PS I'm also a professional gunsmith!
Now lets look at one other problem with tape on the muzzle what happens if you carry a muzzle down and water gets in the breech end of the barrel and you then fire it with water trapped between the bullet and the tape , that's no different than sticking a plug inside the barrel. And what about you guys that have tape on the muzzle and then go into a warm hut and moisture condenses in the barrel because its plugged on one end by the tape, if you have a plain steel barrel , you'll be my next customer .
PS I'm also a professional gunsmith!
elkaholic
Well-Known Member
This is the kind of discussion that I was hoping would come out! It also supports some of what I assumed. Keep it coming guys.......Rich
joelpat
Member
I use black "finger cots" which are essentially little condoms about the diameter of a smallish finger. <this is where the little condom jokes go>
I had a really wet day of hunting a couple weeks ago. Enough that my cell phone nearly drowned inside my gore-tex jacket. Finger cot goes on the end, with a rubber band or a wrap of tape. End of the day, there is some moisture in the barrel (probably from the breach) but no actual drips of water.
Last week I learned why I'm going to do that from now on in anything other than bone dry conditions. A buddy was carrying my backup rifle in steep country and 6" of snow. We met at the truck for lunch and I noted the finger cot on his barrel was torn.
Before we set out again, I took a look at the torn latex. He said he took a little spill but wasn't concerned. I started poking and realized he took a big spill, and the 4" plug of mud in the barrel was frozen solid. If he had taken a shot he would have blown himself and my rifle up.
The finger cot keeps the barrel dry, but it's also a great warning when something more dangerous than rain has gotten in there. I've decided I'm going to use them from now on, if the ground or the sky is wet.
I had a really wet day of hunting a couple weeks ago. Enough that my cell phone nearly drowned inside my gore-tex jacket. Finger cot goes on the end, with a rubber band or a wrap of tape. End of the day, there is some moisture in the barrel (probably from the breach) but no actual drips of water.
Last week I learned why I'm going to do that from now on in anything other than bone dry conditions. A buddy was carrying my backup rifle in steep country and 6" of snow. We met at the truck for lunch and I noted the finger cot on his barrel was torn.
Before we set out again, I took a look at the torn latex. He said he took a little spill but wasn't concerned. I started poking and realized he took a big spill, and the 4" plug of mud in the barrel was frozen solid. If he had taken a shot he would have blown himself and my rifle up.
The finger cot keeps the barrel dry, but it's also a great warning when something more dangerous than rain has gotten in there. I've decided I'm going to use them from now on, if the ground or the sky is wet.
Well if your going that route why not leave a patch on a pull through in the chamber and the muzzle covered . You need to make sure that you CAN NOT chamber a round while in the barrel and that you have to pull it out first ,,, but a fellow shooter tried that one and left it in the barrel and rung the barrel beyond use. So why run all of the risk put the rifle is a slip case on your back that you can get out quickly and its fully protected . Maybe that is a marketable item yet to be discovered , a back scabbard .
Lefty7mmstw
Well-Known Member
your friction coefficient (between the bore and bullet) is likely different between wet conditions and dry conditions... I wouldn't doubt another load may perform satisfactorily in both conditions though so that may be another load development consideration for you.
I have shot my old 243 stryker at the range in a raging down pore with very good accuracy, but I wasn't shooting for groups (just small trash type targets) and everything was 200 yards or under.
As suggested, finger cots or tape is a good answer...
elkaholic
Well-Known Member
That could be but my poi would not come back or group with SEVERAL shots. This is why I think there is more than one thing going on. I still think expanding carbon is a serious issue. Here is hoping the guy writing the thesis will figure it all out. In the meantime, I will be FAR more careful not to get moisture build up in the first place.....Rich
Lefty7mmstw
Well-Known Member
with my 243 I was using 4064 (with 70tnt) and vit540 (with 100hdy) for my powders/ bullets. Either one is a good bit cleaner burning than rl26 from what I've seen. The carbon/ water slurry could have made a lot of change to the slipperiness of the bullet/ barrel interaction. How was your brass condition??? Any over-pressure signs? Was your load near enough the top as to have hot weather trouble? Rl powders often exhibit a bit of unsteady accuracy near the pressure max... I try to keep my rl loads a couple of percent down for this reason...
My pistol was squeaky clean before I started shooting too.
elkaholic
Well-Known Member
My brass was good and no signs of pressure. The load was actually worked up in warmer weather and proofed in cooler weather. RL26 has much better temp swing qualities than most other RL powders I have used..........Rich
LoneTraveler
Well-Known Member
Have any of you chronographed any wet barrel shots to check velocity?
Has anyone tried pouring water between the Barrel and the Stock and shooting it with a dry normal barrel?
To see if the water could not disperse as fast as the bullet going down the barrel changing the free float barrel to a water bedded barrel.
Surface Tension would hold water in place.
Liquid can be moved but not compressed.
For S^)#s & Giggles I went into the kitchen and set up my Loading Scale.
Wet a fork and got a drop of faucet water to fall off a fork point into my scale pan.
Weight, Drop (1) 9 GR. Dry Pan, Drop (2) 9 GR, Dry Pan Drop (3) 9 GR . If 11 drops of water fell into a barrel weight 99 Gr. This could make a pressure spike. Now if when you brought the gun up to fire part of the water drops would by gravity go to the bottom of the barrel. Just a thought.
If the moisture gummed up the powder residue and swelled it up that would be another part of the problem.
Thoughts of an old gun nut at midnight.
Has anyone tried pouring water between the Barrel and the Stock and shooting it with a dry normal barrel?
To see if the water could not disperse as fast as the bullet going down the barrel changing the free float barrel to a water bedded barrel.
Surface Tension would hold water in place.
Liquid can be moved but not compressed.
For S^)#s & Giggles I went into the kitchen and set up my Loading Scale.
Wet a fork and got a drop of faucet water to fall off a fork point into my scale pan.
Weight, Drop (1) 9 GR. Dry Pan, Drop (2) 9 GR, Dry Pan Drop (3) 9 GR . If 11 drops of water fell into a barrel weight 99 Gr. This could make a pressure spike. Now if when you brought the gun up to fire part of the water drops would by gravity go to the bottom of the barrel. Just a thought.
If the moisture gummed up the powder residue and swelled it up that would be another part of the problem.
Thoughts of an old gun nut at midnight.
