Rifles in the rain *important*

[300 Driver]

Lone, you may be on to something there. I was shooting at my 600yd line every this summer in a downpour and my normally reliable rifle was all over the place. To the point that I quit shooting, went home cleaned and put the gun away. Stashed that into my,"well I won't be shooting long range in a downpour" mental notes. Since then the rifle has shot 1/2 MOA as usual. It is a custom 243 Win. I'm remember that the rain was blowing at an angle so that I was dry under the covered line, but the last 2" of barrel were getting wet. If a drop of water can weigh 9gr, how many random drops fell down my barrel that day?

Anyways, I like the theory. Allows me to point the finger away from the shooter!

 

[300 Driver]

One last thought, could impacting water drops enroute to a target deflect a smaller, say 105gr, bullet enough to cause a POI shift? Just another thought.

We're the guys that did not have issues in the rain shooting larger calibers or on a light rain day?

 

[WildRose]

One last thought, could impacting water drops enroute to a target deflect a smaller, say 105gr, bullet enough to cause a POI shift? Just another thought.

We're the guys that did not have issues in the rain shooting larger calibers or on a light rain day?

I've had it make a big difference in the past with .17 Rem and .204 Ruger for sure but can't say the same for anything larger or heavier.

 

[mrmax]

POI at 600yds was the same with wet ammo as dry, even when there was case leakage due to being wet and primers were blown out. This has been my experience in rifle competition for over 30 years. This was while firing 22 shots for record at a 10 inch target @ 600 and still getting all in that size target .

 

[300 Driver]

Mrmax, I personally know nothing about competition. Are your rifles left out in the rain for an extended period or brought out dry, shot quickly, and then put up for the next event?

 

[mrmax]

We have them out in the condition several times during the day. Stages as the 600 have a period which the shooter is allowed 3 minutes to prep, then a brief period of another 2-3 minutes before shooting. In these times its sufficient to allow the gun to be drenched as mine has on occasions. This soaking resulted in the blown primers and other miladies described which would not have occurred to a dry rifle. Keep in mind this was a McMillian fiberglass stock properly bedded that had already fired 66 rounds with out cleaning that same day. Was this gun pampered just the same as you taking care of your hunting rifle. I'm both a professional level shooter , High Master in the classifications which I shoot in and a professional gunsmith. The described problems of POI as indicated give me the impression its a bedding issue from a gun that is wet , not a barrel ammo issue. That being said we'll never know how much condensation or drops of water were in the barrel. There is one other issue, on the M-14's the barrel has a flash hider and it is well know and I've seen it happen that if a drop of water resides inside the standard hider when fired the drop of water WILL deflect the bullet and cause a bullet to strike and break the flash hider , when this happens the harmonics of the rifle go berserk and accuracy is destroyed until its replaced. So a bullet hitting a drop of water at the wrong place is bad news. In theory a super sonic bullet will not touch a drop of rain as it falls this is the result of a preceding sonic shock wave , or in the case of a torpedo or over revved propeller , cavitation. Inside the barrel well that's a different story.

 

[300 Driver]

Thanks! Great explanation too. Forgot about the sonic wave. There goes one more excuse for me...

 

[elkaholic]

We have them out in the condition several times during the day. Stages as the 600 have a period which the shooter is allowed 3 minutes to prep, then a brief period of another 2-3 minutes before shooting. In these times its sufficient to allow the gun to be drenched as mine has on occasions. This soaking resulted in the blown primers and other miladies described which would not have occurred to a dry rifle. Keep in mind this was a McMillian fiberglass stock properly bedded that had already fired 66 rounds with out cleaning that same day. Was this gun pampered just the same as you taking care of your hunting rifle. I'm both a professional level shooter , High Master in the classifications which I shoot in and a professional gunsmith.

The described problems of POI as indicated give me the impression its a bedding issue from a gun that is wet , not a barrel ammo issue.

That being said we'll never know how much condensation or drops of water were in the barrel. There is one other issue, on the M-14's the barrel has a flash hider and it is well know and I've seen it happen that if a drop of water resides inside the standard hider when fired the drop of water WILL deflect the bullet and cause a bullet to strike and break the flash hider , when this happens the harmonics of the rifle go berserk and accuracy is destroyed until its replaced. So a bullet hitting a drop of water at the wrong place is bad news. In theory a super sonic bullet will not touch a drop of rain as it falls this is the result of a preceding sonic shock wave , or in the case of a torpedo or over revved propeller , cavitation. Inside the barrel well that's a different story.

In my case, that could not have been the problem because everything had been dried out, etc., and the poi and group size would not change until I thoroughly cleaned the barrel concentrating particularly on carbon in the throat. When that was accomplished, the poi moved back to dead on and the group measured .2moa from 3 moa............Rich
The rifle has a properly bedded T3 Manners on it.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

Ive spend the last year or so playing with residual carbon in rifle bores and humidity. Not soaking wet, just humid air. When i started asking questions i had no idea what i was looking for, i just couldnt understand why my rifles would group great but POI would constantly move if the rifle sat up for 2 weeks or more.

My first theory came from a conversation with Matt Kline who told me there is always carbon left in a bore after as little as one shot. Sequential firings cause bullets to run over this carbon and thats ok, and that it certainly reacts with moisture and barrel steel. He also suggested my enviroment is very humid and thats probably a factor so if he were me he would look there first.

I started by shooting my guns at different intervals to see how long they could sit before POI started to move. About 1-1/2 - 2 weeks on a barrel that was pretty carbon fouled. A cleaner barrel would go a little longer.

I then tried cleaning with numerous different solvents and patching with different oils to see which one provided the most consistent cold bore.
Side Note - marvel mystery oil ( suggested by Matt Kline ) and Bore Tech Eliminator ( suggested by Jeff Brozovich) were the best and usually were .5-.75 moa off.

Two things led me to my current solution. Residual carbon gets harder after every hour it sits ( a good example is a case neck ), a 6br with varget is a very dirty cartridge ( powder wise ).

I figured maybe dry patching the bore and removing some of the carbon may help. It did. I tested running a different number of patches to see where about would leave the correct amout of carbon for my next cold bore. About 2. If i patched too much, cold bore went low. If i didnt patch at all, cold bore went high, and the group would follow.

After getting a bore scope and correlating some of the velocity reading, cold bore shots, dirty patches, and making changes to how i clean. I have no doubt carbon is the culprit.

I know this isnt very scientific but i never planned on sharing it, and for a long time i never even knew what i was looking for. I was just trying to screw up less.

I will also say i think the results will likely be very dependent on: the cartridge, the powder left in the bore, the duration it was left in the bore, the level of moisture it was exposed to, as well as the duration of humidity exposure.

My overall conclusion. Carbon is bad. Iosso is good. Dry patch often. Keep chambers clean.

Dont know how much this will help but i sure spent a lot of time trying to figure it out.

 

[elkaholic]

Ive spend the last year or so playing with residual carbon in rifle bores and humidity. Not soaking wet, just humid air. When i started asking questions i had no idea what i was looking for, i just couldnt understand why my rifles would group great but POI would constantly move if the rifle sat up for 2 weeks or more.

My first theory came from a conversation with Matt Kline who told me there is always carbon left in a bore after as little as one shot. Sequential firings cause bullets to run over this carbon and thats ok, and that it certainly reacts with moisture and barrel steel. He also suggested my enviroment is very humid and thats probably a factor so if he were me he would look there first.

I started by shooting my guns at different intervals to see how long they could sit before POI started to move. About 1-1/2 - 2 weeks on a barrel that was pretty carbon fouled. A cleaner barrel would go a little longer.

I then tried cleaning with numerous different solvents and patching with different oils to see which one provided the most consistent cold bore.
Side Note - marvel mystery oil ( suggested by Matt Kline ) and Bore Tech Eliminator ( suggested by Jeff Brozovich) were the best and usually were .5-.75 moa off.

Two things led me to my current solution. Residual carbon gets harder after every hour it sits ( a good example is a case neck ), a 6br with varget is a very dirty cartridge ( powder wise ).

I figured maybe dry patching the bore and removing some of the carbon may help. It did. I tested running a different number of patches to see where about would leave the correct amout of carbon for my next cold bore. About 2. If i patched too much, cold bore went low. If i didnt patch at all, cold bore went high, and the group would follow.

After getting a bore scope and correlating some of the velocity reading, cold bore shots, dirty patches, and making changes to how i clean. I have no doubt carbon is the culprit.

I know this isnt very scientific but i never planned on sharing it, and for a long time i never even knew what i was looking for. I was just trying to screw up less.

I will also say i think the results will likely be very dependent on: the cartridge, the powder left in the bore, the duration it was left in the bore, the level of moisture it was exposed to, as well as the duration of humidity exposure.

My overall conclusion. Carbon is bad. Iosso is good. Dry patch often. Keep chambers clean.

Dont know how much this will help but i sure spent a lot of time trying to figure it out.

Thank you for that input. Again, in my mind at least, confirms my suspicion concerning the carbon/moisture dynamic.......Rich

 

[Canadian Bushman]

Thank you for that input. Again, in my mind at least, confirms my suspicion concerning the carbon/moisture dynamic.......Rich

Just a much smaller scale.

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

Thank you for that input. Again, in my mind at least, confirms my suspicion concerning the carbon/moisture dynamic.......Rich

That's why I never noticed an issue with my 243 I'd bet... She started out squeaky clean and was cleaned before she was put up...

 

[Timber338]

I've never used RL26, but I recently bought a pound to test out so I have been reading up as much as I can on other people's experiences with it.

Totally thinking out loud here, but something caught my eye. I have read several times that 26 burns dirty... not sure if that is true.

I also see that 26 uses Alliant's proprietary de-coppering additive.

So with less copper in the barrel with a dirty burning powder, could that lead to a highly accelerated build-up of carbon within the barrel?

Seems like carbon might be the culprit here in one form or another... Rich, I didn't catch if your gun is doing this with other powders??

Maybe the powder companies need to add a de-carbon additive as well, if such a thing would be possible. Or maybe we need more frequent cleaning with some of these newer powders.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

I've never used RL26, but I recently bought a pound to test out so I have been reading up as much as I can on other people's experiences with it.

Totally thinking out loud here, but something caught my eye. I have read several times that 26 burns dirty... not sure if that is true.

I also see that 26 uses Alliant's proprietary de-coppering additive.

So with less copper in the barrel with a dirty burning powder, could that lead to a highly accelerated build-up of carbon within the barrel?

Seems like carbon might be the culprit here in one form or another... Rich, I didn't catch if your gun is doing this with other powders??

Maybe the powder companies need to add a de-carbon additive as well, if such a thing would be possible. Or maybe we need more frequent cleaning with some of these newer powders.

Some powders burn dirtier in one cartridge than they will in another.