Rifles in the rain *important*

[elkaholic]

OP- If I missed this I apologize. you mentioned your MO is to clean then sight in before season. Does this mean your rfile didn't have a lot of round's down the tube (after cleaning) when this happened? I don't know what this would reveal one way or the other, just curious. There is definitely something to all of this, and I wish I had it figured out. I believe it must happen only when a bunch of things come together at one time. We have shot a lot in when it's wet, and sometimes the point of impact has been spot on and does not seem to be affected. Other times it cause's us to hit high and gives heavy ejector marks.. We have noticed this more when there is extreme moisture in the air versus heavy rain? At least the times I can recall it happening. When this has happened, it has lasted for shot 1 only and then back to normal. The crazy thing is, the exact same rife and load etc, will shoot great when wet sometimes,and not other times. I need to look back at my notes to see how many rounds down bore after cleaning when this has happened to see if there is a pattern? Not saying there would be, but I would love to figure it out! Since we know the rifles can be affected by rain or moisture, we have been using balloons overy the brake/muzzle while hunting and have not had an issue , even in extreme rain. Also, we have shot with the balloon on, and it has not affected point of impact. My notes indicate wet/ rain but I wish I had documented if it was heavy moisture/ condensation or flat out rain. Very interested to follow this thread. Thanks for posting! Also, whatever it is, it must be a combination of the right kind of wet, the right amount of fouling etc, because it does not do it all the time!

I completely agree with your assessment. Although most of it is not provable to this point. I normally clean thoroughly and then sight in and leave things alone until after the season is over. Sometimes, which was the case this year, I probably shoot more before season than I intend too, so there may have been 20 or so rounds down the barrel.
Here is my best guess about what happened, and I think there is SOME evidence to back it up. Something I think that is often overlooked is a carbon ring built up in the throat! I have had rifles where it was never an issue, and some where it was. When I got back from this hunt, I was really looking for answers so I payed particular attention to this area. I do not have a bore scope, so you pretty much have to assume that it is there. I clean the barrel and chamber as well as I can and then soak a patch with Kroil, or other good powder/carbon solvent. I pack it into the throat area. I then place the rifle muzzle up and put a few more drops down the bore and let it set for at least 24 hrs. I much the patch out with a cleaning rod. I then take a wire bore brush, maybe 1 cal oversize, and rotate it in the throat area. Next a take a patch with some more of the solvent and rotate it in the throat just a turn or 2. I check the patch to see if there is ANY carbon on the patch. I do this until I find NO carbon. Sometimes it might require another overnight soaking.
When I tried this in this particular case, there was a small ring PART way around the bore as was evidenced by the patch I pulled out after soaking. I believe what happens is this carbon swells with the moisture and causes the issue that was not present without the expansion. I have had this happen WITHOUT moisture but it was a much more pronounced ring.
Looking back over the years, I believe there may have been a few rifles gotten rid of because they could not be made to shoot! Not mine, but a couple of friends. I have found that normal cleaning will not always prevent this from happening and it is a bigger problem than people realize.
Again, this is speculation as far as this particular case goes, but there WAS carbon present in the throat. This may well be the reason for taking more than one shot without the zero coming back. It makes sense to me that JUST water in the bore would be a one shot problem. .......Rich

 

[Timber338]

I think Hornady spent so much time inventing a bullet tip that does not melt from heat, they overlooked the other extreme and all of your bullet tips are dissolving when they are getting wet.

all kidding aside, and I know I'm a little late to this discussion, I agree there's more to this problem because your rifle continued to shoot poorly after the first shot.

Not getting into all the details, one thing I noticed from skimming through 11 pages worth of discussion, is that anybody who has experienced this problem I believe had P.O.I shift up or up/right. That's characteristic for most barrels with increasing pressure. And although pressure can be changed by all sorts of variables anywhere along the length of the barrel, I think something changing at/near the chamber/throat will have a much more dramatic effect than something changing towards the end.

For such a large (3" high/right) P.O.I. shift from such an otherwise accurate rifle, my brain is saying something is going on in the chamber or throat or both. The initial pressure impulse that sets of the barrel harmonic is getting highly disturbed from the moisture somewhere up front. Moisture at the end of the barrel could be a factor, but I don't think it's the main contributor.

And it may not be a single cause... it might be a few different things all adding up to make a perfect storm.... 3" change in POI at 100 for a tried and true rifle proves that something very dramatic is going on... Great thread Elkaholic, I am certainly going to follow along and hope you figure something out!

 

[elkaholic]

I think Hornady spent so much time inventing a bullet tip that does not melt from heat, they overlooked the other extreme and all of your bullet tips are dissolving when they are getting wet.

all kidding aside, and I know I'm a little late to this discussion, I agree there's more to this problem because your rifle continued to shoot poorly after the first shot.

Not getting into all the details, one thing I noticed from skimming through 11 pages worth of discussion, is that anybody who has experienced this problem I believe had P.O.I shift up or up/right. That's characteristic for most barrels with increasing pressure. And although pressure can be changed by all sorts of variables anywhere along the length of the barrel, I think something changing at/near the chamber/throat will have a much more dramatic effect than something changing towards the end.

For such a large (3" high/right) P.O.I. shift from such an otherwise accurate rifle, my brain is saying something is going on in the chamber or throat or both. The initial pressure impulse that sets of the barrel harmonic is getting highly disturbed from the moisture somewhere up front. Moisture at the end of the barrel could be a factor, but I don't think it's the main contributor.

And it may not be a single cause... it might be a few different things all adding up to make a perfect storm.... 3" change in POI at 100 for a tried and true rifle proves that something very dramatic is going on... Great thread Elkaholic, I am certainly going to follow along and hope you figure something out!

You pretty much covered what I was going to add about where the most pressure occurs so I will just add this. One thing that I have realized from messing with wildcat development over the years is that even .0002" in the throat makes a considerable difference in how pressure spikes! Most of my reamers run .0005" over the bore size (i.e. a .264 would be .2645"). If you get a reamer that is .2643", pressure will be considerably higher initially. This is a lot of the reason different rifles will often pressure out at different charges. It is very easy to picture how a little swelling of carbon in the throat would cause this problem! I am pretty sure that almost everyone has seen the copper bullet corroded with a green color around the ogive after extracting a round from a wet chamber. VERY little clearance there.......Rich

 

[lamiglas]

I think your definitely on to something, and I believe the issue you experienced is certainly separate from the normal affects that only moisture (without another issue, such as a carbon ring) would cause. Following my builders advice, I only clean when the barrel shows it needs it. Over years this has proved to work, and have found (in my custom rifle, this at 250 rounds). For the last couple if years this has meant only cleaning once a year after season is over. Everything comes apart, is thoroughly cleaned and then put back together. Admittedly, I have never focused on the carbon ring and this has me wondering if sometimes I do a better job of removing it than others? maybe this is why the moisture/wetness has this affect sometimes but not always?
my point to this is maybe, with no carbon ring at all, we can get away with having some moisture, with a small carbon build up, it has a small affect, only requiring one shother to rid the barrel of moisture, but with a large carbon build up we might run onto the issue you experienced?

 

[elkaholic]

I think your definitely on to something, and I believe the issue you experienced is certainly separate from the normal affects that only moisture (without another issue, such as a carbon ring) would cause. Following my builders advice, I only clean when the barrel shows it needs it. Over years this has proved to work, and have found (in my custom rifle, this at 250 rounds). For the last couple if years this has meant only cleaning once a year after season is over. Everything comes apart, is thoroughly cleaned and then put back together. Admittedly, I have never focused on the carbon ring and this has me wondering if sometimes I do a better job of removing it than others? maybe this is why the moisture/wetness has this affect sometimes but not always?
my point to this is maybe, with no carbon ring at all, we can get away with having some moisture, with a small carbon build up, it has a small affect, only requiring one shother to rid the barrel of moisture, but with a large carbon build up we might run onto the issue you experienced?

Yes, and even with NO carbon ring, I would not be surprised if the void around the bullet was completely filled with water, it could raise pressures excessively. After all you only have approx. .0025" per side with a perfectly clean bore. Who knows what 60,000+ PSI and tremendous heat do in that split second.......Rich

 

[elkaholic]

350 rem mag would work

 

[Antonio m]

Hi,I am not a long range guy but have poi changes in the field before myself. I like the idea of a takedown now and have a Browning BLR for this purpose.When the weather gets really poor,I tale it down and put it in a dry daypack or horseback. I also carry a bore snake in my pack which is used when needed.Even condensation can change things up imo

 

[elkaholic]

Here was the group I shot after thoroughly cleaning with no scope adjustment. Quite a change from the 3" group high and to the right with the soaked barrel! The aim point was the intersection of the black and green a bullet width higher and to the right.

 

[cowboy]

I ran this theoretical situation/problem by the head of the metallurgical Dept at the college I graduated from through a contact. First question asked was steel, stainless or
Carbon wrapped barrel?
We've got enough variables identified that I think a grad student needs to take this problem and run with it for his masters thesis.

 

[Pdvdh]

I still think Rich is up to it!

 

[elkaholic]

I ran this theoretical situation/problem by the head of the metallurgical Dept at the college I graduated from through a contact. First question asked was steel, stainless or
Carbon wrapped barrel?
We've got enough variables identified that I think a grad student needs to take this problem and run with it for his masters thesis.

Man, that would be awesome! My barrel was stainless. Let me throw something else out there that has not been mentioned yet. I was using HBN. I have NO idea whether or not this could be a factor, but from spending a career in forestry (tree improvement specifically) I understand that everything has to be known in researching something. Let me know how this goes and if you need any help.....Rich

 

[ZSteinle]

http://du-ha.com/90500_dri_hide.html

Official DU-HA Website // New Products



This is what I carry with me. Rolls up to nothing, weighs nothing and keeps water off of your gun. Cheap and work great. Wont fit really long guns or guns with huge scopes but fits most of mine. Probably 28" barrel max. I keep all my guns in them even when they are in the safe. Ive put my shotgun in a dri-hide soaking wet and set it in the safe and by the next day its bone dry.

 

[toddc]

Man, that would be awesome! My barrel was stainless. Let me throw something else out there that has not been mentioned yet. I was using HBN. I have NO idea whether or not this could be a factor, but from spending a career in forestry (tree improvement specifically) I understand that everything has to be known in researching something. Let me know how this goes and if you need any help.....Rich

Been a lot of weird stuff go down with a lot of the bullet coatings over the years. The HBN in the barrel could have turned to a sludge of some sort or who knows what. In THEORY a wet exterior of a barrel could even change a tune. It wouldn't seem to be something that would have a huge effect but WHO KNOWS?

 

[Pdvdh]

It may not be possible to replicate this experience in the subject rifle, let alone any other rifle. So that's a most logical approach to determining the cause for the altered POIs.

If carbon fouling is the foremost theory, and the bore is now cleaned of carbon deposition, replicating all other conditions and then attempting to replicate skewed POIs would test the carbon ring theory - because the lack of any carbon would be the only known test parameter changed.

The first shot fired with a wet rifle and wet shells will test the affect of solely water on the rifle's POI.

If the wet shells/rifle shifts POI on the first shot fired (it probably will), then two more shots will shed light on the lingering affects of solely water, versus wet carbon deposits. If the rifle doesn't return to POI on the 2nd shot, then that would point to wet shells/chamber, rather than the wet bore (since there's now no carbon in the throat). If the rifle returns to POI on the second shot, then that would point to the carbon as the cause.

If the wet shells/rifle maintains POI on all 3 initial shots (unlikely), then no single cause could be identified, because the skewed POIs haven't been replicated.

The next logical test that could shed further light on the cause of the shifted POIs would be allowing carbon fouling to develop in the throat, and then repeating the test all over again.

On the prevention side of things, I like the idea of a balloon over my muzzle brake equipped rifles. I started with 3M electrical tape decades ago when I wasn't using muzzle brakes, and that works well. The use of tape over larger muzzle brakes becomes a bigger challenge with all the additional ports and openings. A simple snug balloon covering the muzzle brake, taped to the barrel behind the muzzle brake, is how I intend to roll going forward. The balloon may even be more durable than 3M tape, although tape has always endured the conditions during my backpack hunting - with no additional protection from the elements. I'll be stopping into the local thrift / party store prior to my next hunt.