Rifles in the rain *important*

[Pdvdh]

I'm a skeptic that running a cleaning patch down a bore removes moisture better than firing a bullet down the bore. Meaning that firing a single bullet down the bore would be as effective as running an alcohol swab down the bore.

So I have no idea why it takes 3 shots fired and a thorough bore cleaning to return a rifle to it's former accuracy and zero.

I do believe prevention is the simpler path forward. Seal off the muzzle, for many reasons. And chamber dry cartridges from outside a wet magazine, rather than feeding wet ones from the wet magazine into a dry chamber.

That's how I go about it, in order to reduce the concern of wetness skewing my POIs.

 

[elkaholic]

I'm a skeptic that running a cleaning patch down a bore removes moisture better than firing a bullet down the bore. Meaning that firing a single bullet down the bore would be as effective as running an alcohol swab down the bore.

So I have no idea why it takes 3 shots fired and a thorough bore cleaning to return a rifle to it's former accuracy and zero.

I do believe prevention is the simpler path forward. Seal off the muzzle, for many reasons. And chamber dry cartridges from outside a wet magazine, rather than feeding wet ones from the wet magazine into a dry chamber.

That's how I go about it, in order to reduce the concern of wetness skewing my POIs.

Thats why the cleaning patch thing may or may not work? The deposits are still there, but I least I can start out with a drier bore. I agree that prevention is the best approach, but I am still concerned about simple condensation causing problems......Rich

 

[Pdvdh]

The cause for my errant shots are generally easier to identify, after the fact. Their origin typically is embedded in my brain. Which requires more than a simple cleaning patch to resolve...

 

[elkaholic]

The cause for my errant shots are generally easier to identify, after the fact. Their origin typically is embedded in my brain. Which requires more than a simple cleaning patch to resolve...

Well, it's nice to have an excuse to fall back on!

 

[cowboy]

If you want a guess on why accuracy goes south with a wet or moist barrel here goes my 2 cent keyboard opinion:

Water does not compress and if you put water under pressure you can get some very eye opening unpredictable results. You combine water with air under pressure and you have a recipe for some catastrophic results - water hammer. I tend to believe water in a barrel affects the pressure, which affects the velocity, which effects the accuracy. You put some carbon deposits that have been soaked with water, along with copper fouling etc. and I'm not sure you could accurately predict what is going to happen.

I may have to rerun the old wet barrel test at the range at distance again but I think this time I'll hook the magnetospeed to see if that throws any new light on the situation.

 

[elkaholic]

If you want a guess on why accuracy goes south with a wet or moist barrel here goes my 2 cent keyboard opinion:

Water does not compress and if you put water under pressure you can get some very eye opening unpredictable results. You combine water with air under pressure and you have a recipe for some catastrophic results - water hammer. I tend to believe water in a barrel affects the pressure, which affects the velocity, which effects the accuracy. You put some carbon deposits that have been soaked with water, along with copper fouling etc. and I'm not sure you could accurately predict what is going to happen.

I may have to rerun the old wet barrel test at the range at distance again but I think this time I'll hook the magnetospeed to see if that throws any new light on the situation.

I don't know about pressure changes with water plus deposits but I suspect more pressure. The article that I submitted from outdoor life, however; showed lower pressure when just 8" of the barrel was dipped in water? Pretty complicated!.....Rich

 

[North Idaho Hunter]

Interesting read, I'm glad this was brought up.

just this last deer season, I hunted all day pouring down rain, gun was soaked, full of water.

after the hunt, just before last light, I shot the rifle at 100 yards, first shot, water/mist went all over my face, I look at the target, I hit exactly 2 MOA high. I scratched my head, try ejecting the shell, she doesn't want to come out! a good tug and it ejects and the primer almost falls out when I tap it on a rock. very heavy ejector mark and swipe.

this load is not a hot load, so the water mustve caused the over pressure condition.

second shot hit dead center bullseye, no pressure signs, no heavy bolt lift. I put one more on target for good measure impacting 3/8's left of center.

now it makes sense after reading this thread, water can do wacky things to our guns. I will take better care of keeping the barrel and action dry during wet hunts.

 

[Pdvdh]

Adding to this research effort;

The temperatures generated inside the bore are pretty intense. Pierced primers can weld a bolt to an action or the barrel. What water isn't removed by the bullet passing down the bore "should" be flash evaporated by the heat.

If I wanted to return a wetted-bore to the fired-bore condition it was left in at the time I headed out into the field - without regard to the noise or the consequences of the muzzle report on the elk I wanted to hit 500yds away - I'd fire another bullet down the bore into the ground and call it good for my next shot on-elk.

If I had to compromise in order to not scare the elk into cover due to the muzzle blast, I'd pull a dry patch down the wet bore and hope that effect didn't mess with my POI from the original fouled-bore condition. I don't usually carry gun cleaning equipment when I'm backpack hunting. So I tape the muzzle.

 

[Pdvdh]

Interesting read, I'm glad this was brought up.

after the hunt, just before last light, I shot the rifle at 100 yards, first shot, water/mist went all over my face, I look at the target, I hit exactly 2 MOA high.

second shot hit dead center bullseye, no pressure signs, no heavy bolt lift. I put one more on target for good measure impacting 3/8's left of center.

This is consistent with my expectations that the first bullet fired returns the bore to original fouled-bore condition.

I'm always eager to see the results of others' testing, so should any pursue their theories, please share.

 

[elkaholic]

This is consistent with my expectations that the first bullet fired returns the bore to original fouled-bore condition.

I'm always eager to see the results of others' testing, so should any pursue their theories, please share.

That does not explain my experience though. My second and third shots were farther away from zero than the first! It also sounds like cowboy had a similar situation. I suppose at some point it would straighten up, but I don't know how many shots it would have taken? It could be that it depends on how much fouling was in the bore to begin with? It would be a nice test for someone to run; or maybe several someones!.......Rich

 

[Pdvdh]

It would be a nice test for someone to run; or maybe several someones!.......Rich

I was hoping you'd run some tests with the same rifle and ammo that produced your experience in the field. Nobody better equipped than you! All you need is a shower head / sprinkler! We're unlikely to attain further clarity without experimental testing.

Might require multiple tests. Clean wet chamber and clean dry bore. Clean dry chamber and clean wet bore. Clean wet chamber AND clean wet bore. Fouled wet chamber and fouled dry bore. Fouled dry chamber and fouled wet bore. Fouled wet chamber AND fouled wet bore. And so one and so forth. Lot's of possible combinations and complications.

 

[elkaholic]

I was hoping you'd run some tests with the same rifle and ammo that produced your experience in the field. Nobody better equipped than you! All you need is a shower head / sprinkler! We're unlikely to attain further clarity without experimental testing.

Might require multiple tests. Clean wet chamber and clean dry bore. Clean dry chamber and clean wet bore. Clean wet chamber AND clean wet bore. Fouled wet chamber and fouled dry bore. Fouled dry chamber and fouled wet bore. Fouled wet chamber AND fouled wet bore. And so one and so forth. Lot's of possible combinations and complications.

I agree, and I may do that, but not with todays weather My hot tea and Jim Shockeys adventures will have to do.......Rich

 

[catamountsierra]

I would expect having drops of water in the barrel to cause major accuracy issues with the first shot, but not with subsequent shots. I expect that water or even humidity would possibly cause carbon fouling to swell, and I think this may affect more than just the first shot. However, I think it would take more than just a quick dip in water to make carbon fouling swell, but high humidity/condensation over several days time may well be enough. Extremely dry carbon starts out hydrophobic, and would resist absorbing water, but once it starts to absorb water it sucks it up and swells rapidly. I think testing this theory would likely involve exposing a carbon fouled rifle to high humidity and cold temperatures for an extended period and ideally monitoring the carbon fouling with a bore scope; not tests I am equipped to conduct. Another possible test would be to try shooting a groups at say 4 hour intervals over the course of a couple days of exposure and trying to determine when the accuracy degrades; though I also wonder if the repeated firing would delay or prevent water absorption. Just some thoughts from the concussed scientist...

 

[elkaholic]

I would expect having drops of water in the barrel to cause major accuracy issues with the first shot, but not with subsequent shots. I expect that water or even humidity would possibly cause carbon fouling to swell, and I think this may affect more than just the first shot. However, I think it would take more than just a quick dip in water to make carbon fouling swell, but high humidity/condensation over several days time may well be enough. Extremely dry carbon starts out hydrophobic, and would resist absorbing water, but once it starts to absorb water it sucks it up and swells rapidly. I think testing this theory would likely involve exposing a carbon fouled rifle to high humidity and cold temperatures for an extended period and ideally monitoring the carbon fouling with a bore scope; not tests I am equipped to conduct. Another possible test would be to try shooting a groups at say 4 hour intervals over the course of a couple days of exposure and trying to determine when the accuracy degrades; though I also wonder if the repeated firing would delay or prevent water absorption. Just some thoughts from the concussed scientist...

I do agree that it is likely that the prolonged exposure to water had a greater affect. My best guess is the small carbon ring got larger causing a .2 or better rifle to shoot minute of mtn!